ANGRY at PCM Engine Group...

[IDBoating]

just enjoy the boat and not be angry at the engine mfr because they won't give them a service manual

Have you heard the term "gentleman pilot"? That's what they call a guy who gets his pilot's license but doesn't really UNDERSTAND how the aircraft and its systems work. He's in great shape - until something is wrong. Then the "gentleman pilot" is in big trouble, while the REAL pilot, who took the time to really learn about his aircraft, has a much better chance of minimizing the problem until it can be properly serviced.

These boats are expensive. They deserve to be treated properly. I want to know as much as possible about them. Where is the fault in that? Why am I the "bad guy" for wanting to know more about my $85K boat and its $10K engine? Why do you settle for ignorance, when you could be smarter about what is probably the second most expensive thing you'll ever buy?

[IDBoating]

I ask you again, did you get the manual for your CUMMINS engine directly from Cummins? The answer before was NO

That's because I got it from Dodge. But Cummins is happy to sell you the manual. Call them up and see.

Can I get a service manual for my International in my Ford directly from Navistar?

Are you sure? Have you called them?

So how is this "violating" any industry "standard"?

As noted above: Most engine manufacturers are delighted to sell you their service manuals. Call them up, or visit a local dealership, and they're delighted to support you. I'm not talking freebies here, I'm talking about paying cash. When I owned Hondas, I bought their manuals. Same with Toyota. I now own two Dodge products and they are happy to sell manuals. Heck, even guys like Polaris and BRP are happy to sell you their service manuals (I have them for their engines too). Even the BIG equipment makers - such as Case (heavy equipment) - sell comprehensive manuals (I have that one too, for my 580SK backhoe). Likewise Mercury. All of them. You want manuals, they'll sell you manuals. It's standard practice for everyone...

...except PCM.

[Timmy!]

I think you should probably sell your PCM powered Tige to someone who will just enjoy the boat and not be angry at the engine mfr because they won't give them a service manual. The PCM has not given you any trouble yet you are bashing the company? I could see you being mad if you had taken it in time after time for repairs and the mechanics weren't able to figure out a problem and your last resort was to fix it yourself but that's not the case.

[Fiveflat]

This thread is unbelievable.

I ask you again, did you get the manual for your CUMMINS engine directly from Cummins? The answer before was NO

Can I get a service manual for my International in my Ford directly from Navistar? The answer is NO

So how is this "violating" any industry "standard" ?

I'm floored that you continue to be so ANGRY over this.

[Original Wing Nut]

My 05 has a PCM engine as an upgraded option back then. I love it am happy to see them in all Tige's now.

[91Terminator]

Folks, since Trey has "gone public" here I want to mention a couple of things. He has been very helpful - as far as he's permitted by "company policy". I am sincerely appreciative of his help. The problem is not with Trey. The problem, apparently, is a company that violates the standards of the industry by not making available the normal documentation that the vast majority of other engine and vehicle manufacturers gladly provide.

Again, I'm thankful to Trey. I'm just very, very disappointed by PCM so far. Tige has switched engine manufacturers in the past, and it may be time to start encouraging them to switch again.

I dont understand??? What exactly are you looking for that you think other companies will give you?

I dont understand how you can bash a company that has done nothing wrong. I am sorry that PCM doesn't run their company they way you want it to be run but it is their company they can do whatever they want and you have no right to bash them for running it they way they do.

[IDBoating]

Folks, since Trey has "gone public" here I want to mention a couple of things. He has been very helpful - as far as he's permitted by "company policy". I am sincerely appreciative of his help. The problem is not with Trey. The problem, apparently, is a company that violates the standards of the industry by not making available the normal documentation that the vast majority of other engine and vehicle manufacturers gladly provide.

Again, I'm thankful to Trey. I'm just very, very disappointed by PCM so far. Tige has switched engine manufacturers in the past, and it may be time to start encouraging them to switch again.

[JSTIII]

WABoating

I would like to thank you for the purchase of your Tige' boat powered by PCM. I understand through our communications and your posts on tigeowners.com, that you are in search of as much information as possible. I do admire your thirst for knowledge of our product. Consumer product care and maintenance can be found in the owners manual that was supplied with your engine, as well as under the owner's info tab at www.pcmengines.com. At this point the technical information you are requesting is not availale to consumers per company policy. Through our 35 years of manufacturing inboard gasoline engines, we have established company policies and procedures for the good of our product, and customer satisfaction, that must be enforced. We focus everyday on building the best product possible, as well as building a qualified dealer service network worldwide to handle any customer needs. We will stand behind our product, as we have done for 35 years, and will continue to strive to do our best. I have already provided you my contact information, so if there is anthing else that I may assit with, please feel free to contact me. I hope that you enjoy your boat, and do so for many years to come.

Thank you,

Trey Thurman
PCM Marine Engines

[IDBoating]

haha, this is funny because I sometimes catch myself telling someone what I think is the problem

There is nothing wrong with sharing an opinion on a problem, as long as you are respectful of those with greater knowledge and experience. No one knows everything, and you might have the key piece of data that helps the expert solve the problem.

[Fiveflat]

I can tell her the good engineers from the bad, the good ones come in and give me a detailed list of symtoms, the bad ones tell me what to fix.

haha, this is funny because I sometimes catch myself telling someone what I think is the problem...


Although I'm probably 90% right. But the other 10%? Not too far off

[IDBoating]

As you stated about your mercury V6 that you changed exhaust temp sensor, question did you do the diagnositic test procedures to confirm it was indeed bad

I have not yet characterized the replaced part.

did you do test to see if it was out of range, did the sensor you installed meet the same spec as the one you replaced by engine serial number

Yes, I matched part numbers before purchasing the sensor from the parted out engine. You're right, things do change. Mercury makes their documentation completely available and I have electronic copies on my work machine, home machine, and laptop. ANY time I have a question I look up the associated part numbers based on the serial number of my engine and confirm that I have the proper part(s) before doing anything.

Ironically, your point supports mine: How would someone do the test(s) and confirm the specs without complete documentation? PCM cannot insist on following procedures if they do not make those procedures available.

And in case it needs saying again: I would not work on an engine that is still under warranty. (It would be a waste of my time and money - why not take advantage of the warranty I've already paid for?) However, that does not mean I would not want to learn about such an engine while it was still within warranty.

I will find it astonishing if PCM refuses to allow a paying customer to learn more about their product. Most companies welcome intense customer interest, because the more a customer knows about their product the more enthusiastic they become about those products. This leads to positive word-of-mouth advertising, the very best PR a company can possibly receive.

As an example of that, look at the fan clubs that exist for various automobile brands and models. The manufacturers actively encourage such activities because they promote brand loyalty, and generate new sales from both existing and new customers. All such products have warranties when new, too.

Let's consider Tige here. They are very responsive. They strongly support this very website (created by owners, not by the company, right?) to the point of even promoting it in their literature. They're not afraid to share technical data - when I asked about installing ballast they even shipped me the factory hull drawings showing where they install the thru-hulls for the factory ballast system (amongst a whole bunch of other technical documentation). And guess what - Tige has a warranty, too. A darned good one.

Supporting customers is the norm. PCM's position is the rare exception. No matter what reasons they give, the bottom line is that they are refusing to provide what the vast majority of other companies in similar markets willingly sell or even give away for free. I'm not asking for the formula for Coca-Cola; this isn't trade secret stuff. This is industry standard documentation.

The other kind of word-of-mouth advertising, where a customer vents their frustration with a company, is the very worst they can receive. And it's the company's own actions that determine which kind of word-of-mouth advertising they get.

[dom w. forte]

I am checking on manuals for your application, but I too am concerned with your usage.
I would not stand behind warranty of a product that a customer had the manuals and used the proper parts and istalled himself to factory spec and still possibly might of fixed said problem or created another.
As you stated about your mercury V6 that you changed exhaust temp sensor, question did you do the diagnositic test procedures to confirm it was indeed bad, did you do test to see if it was out of range, did the sensor you installed meet the same spec as the one you replaced by engine serial number, or did you change it without a test on a gut feeling and in fact you could currently be running lean and could cause a problem in the future.
You stated that it came from a used engine, engine calibrations change on a regular basis, from serial number to number, and also updates, I dont care if they built a day apart.
This is why PCM and not Mercury cares who they provide info to, we as mechanics dont do heart surgery nor would I want the medical manuals about it , I cant tell you how many times we have had to fix what somebody with a shop manual already fixed and fix the real problem.
My wife has been a mechanical engineer for 35 years and I have worked on a multitude of her fellow engineers vehicles, I can tell her the good engineers from the bad, the good ones come in and give me a detailed list of symtoms, the bad ones tell me what to fix.

[embo]

I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate the thought. But I have a saying: "Take good care of your equipment and it will take good care of you." The more you know about your equipment, the better you can take advantage of its features, and maintain it, and enjoy it.

...

It's remarkable to me that PCM does not want to have educated customers.

I totally agree 100%. I probably wouldn't get in as deep as you into the how to's but to each his own. I do pride myself and knowing what things sound, ride, handle, stop, start etc and after some time I get to know the equipment pretty well. So while I may not know the sensor name or location or even that it's a sensor, I will know something isn't right and either come on here and ask someone like you who reads manuals for pleasure or call the mech and ask them. But I could probably save myself money if I knew a little more that is for sure. I can really appreciated you wanting to know as much as you do.

I, as well, find it interesting they don't want to share the manuals with you. But I have run into this as a pilot trying to find out answers to mech questions for myself. But usually there is an "inside person" who you finally get a hold of and get the "secret doc" from.

Keep digging WABoating....as I have said before, I am enjoying what you are communicating to the rest of us and finding your ideas interesting...if nothing else.

[IDBoating]

My point is, you are not a certified PCM tech and as such PCM should not be required to cover the parts, labor, etc or extend warranty coverage. Are you a mechanic by trade with other certifications or just a shadetree mechanic like the rest of us?

Shadetree, if that. {grin}

I've already agreed if it's within warranty, it should be taken to a dealer. What more are you asking me to say?

[Timmy!]

My point is, you are not a certified PCM tech and as such PCM should not be required to cover the parts, labor, etc or extend warranty coverage. Are you a mechanic by trade with other certifications or just a shadetree mechanic like the rest of us?