ANGRY at PCM Engine Group...

[dom w. forte]

Engine manual pcm is not generic it is the same as what is in the boat, lit. is available up to mefi 4 and drive by wire, if you obtain or read the DBW or MEFI 4 you will have an understanding of current system.
The evolution of the PCM computor controls is no different then the car industry such as fords MCU,ECC1,ECC2,ECC3,ECC4,ECC5, only speed of info and command changed with the systems with slight variations, but nothing that a trained tech couldnt diaginois with out available info, overall systems on imput and command remained consistent.
Also most of the current power plants in boating ( inboards ) systems work very simular , same imputs and commands , main difference would be fuel and igntion curves built into data.

[IDBoating]

you need 3 manuals for that boat

motor, if you want to rebuild it
electrical one
EFI one

So far I have the first one, which is a generic GM 5.7L engine manual (i.e not specific to PCM's application).

I've been told that PCM will not ship the other documentation to mere owners - you know, the documentation that is PCM-specific.

its the same as PCM, u can get off their web site, well it used to be that way

Not the most recent generation of info.

[JUST-IN-TIME]

you need 3 manuals for that boat

motor, if you want to rebuild it
electrical one
EFI one

its the same as PCM, u can get off their web site, well it used to be that way

[IDBoating]

Here's a POSITIVE note...

Just so this thread isn't all complaints and negativity....

Yesterday I sent an email to Tige, asking about the ballast switches they use with their factory ballast systems. (My 24Ve didn't come with a ballast system and I'd like to use the factory switches when I install one.)

Within about 30 minutes I had an email response. I answered their questions and emailed back.

About five minutes later, my cellphone rang. It was Tige's Parts Manager, calling because "It's just faster and easier to give you this information over the phone than type it up in an email." He gave me everything... part number, description of how it works with the panel, how the 24Ve's differs from the RZ units, how they receive them from their supplier, all of it.

Tige absolutely ROCKS!

Folks, THIS is how Customer Service should be handled. Getting an answer was great. Getting an answer fast was outstanding. Getting a cellphone call with a complete data dump was beyond awesome.

If you need an example of how to properly take care of customers, look at Tige. To quote an earlier post here, Tige is a "great company with great products"... AND they are proud to back them up with great people and great support.

All too often we only hear complaints. I wanted to loudly and publicly give Tige massive props for doing things RIGHT! Thanks, Tige! I'm very happy and very lucky to be a member of the Tige family!

[Timmy!]

You can create one yourself - by obtaining the service manual and becoming familiar with your engine. Then YOU are the monitoring system. {grin}

I don't need one.

[IDBoating]

I will see what is available.

Thank you!

[dom w. forte]

All shop manuals for all manufacturers including mercury are broken down into catagories, example with merc, you have mech, 555 pcm, 555 ecm, fuel system, cooling system, outdrive, transmission, tsbs, and some systems we are not privey to, which we have to call in and they will give us test procedures and give us a part to try and see if problem is cured.
I will see what is available.

[IDBoating]

You should create a marine system that monitors the sensors health so that owners know when the sensors aren't sensitive enough anymore!

You can create one yourself - by obtaining the service manual and becoming familiar with your engine. Then YOU are the monitoring system. {grin}

[gwhite94]

You should create a marine system that monitors the sensors health so that owners know when the sensors aren't sensitive enough anymore! But what happens when that goes bad...oh man, that would be bad because then you wouldn't know that your sensors are going bad!

Man if we continue with this type of logic we would not need ballast. The boat would be so freakin heavy with monitoring equipment we could have huge wakes. I hope I have been sensitive enough to the sensor issue. I am going to monitor my output on this topic..

[Timmy!]

Given this experience, I suspect that many of the sensors DO fail gradually, but the owners aren't sensitive enough to the subtle changes in engine operation to notice. By the time the symptoms are serious enough to attract their attention, the sensor has "completely" failed and that's how it gets reported.

You should create a marine system that monitors the sensors health so that owners know when the sensors aren't sensitive enough anymore! But what happens when that goes bad...oh man, that would be bad because then you wouldn't know that your sensors are going bad!

[zad0030]

Sounds like you should be bitching at GM, because its their engine, not PCM's. PCM takes the block and marinizes it for boating use, along with a few other tweaks. Everything regarding the engine block itself wouldn't be much different than a regular 350.

[IDBoating]

when WA BOATING changed a sensor on his engine as he stated, but I didnt see where he confirmed that it was bad first, and if their was a root cause for its failure.

That particular sensor has a history of failure. (In addition to learning everything I can, I also track the history of the systems around me... their track record in the industry, common failure modes, etc. That's why I jumped to that sensor so quickly.)

However, its failure is usually reported as sudden or catastrophic. In my case, it appears that the sensor started to deteriorate gradually because the onset of symptoms was gradual.

Given this experience, I suspect that many of the sensors DO fail gradually, but the owners aren't sensitive enough to the subtle changes in engine operation to notice. By the time the symptoms are serious enough to attract their attention, the sensor has "completely" failed and that's how it gets reported.

[IDBoating]

As for WA boating im trying to find out what info hes after, mech, or elect, or both

I'm looking for the documentation that would be used by someone in your shop to diagnose and repair the 2009 version of the EX-343 CAT engine. To me, that means theory of operation, troubleshooting diagrams, nominal electrical measurements with tolerances, torque specs for fasteners, exploded diagrams, etc. In other words, a typical "shop" manual. If PCM breaks down catagories or subsystems into multiple manuals (mech, electrical, etc.) I'd want all of them. Normally those are chapters in a single manual but I can easily understand how they might be separated for convenience of reference or updates as things are updated during the production life of an engine.

Thank you very much for your help!

[dom w. forte]

MNEAL as to my wife being a mechanical engineer , she has been in the power industry for 35 years , and gained the knowledge and experience to be quite good at what she does, but she also knows what her limitations are, as do I , all I was saying is to many engineers in various different fields, think they can fix anything, but dont have the experience to do so.
Just like in my field there are parts changers and problem solvers, we try to fix the problem and also find out why the failure occured, but I dont profess to know anything out of my expertise, thats why I wouldnt tackle something that I dont have experience with.
The funny part is a good mechanic, is an engineer, because if you dont understand how something functions , your usually a parts changer.
As for WA boating im trying to find out what info hes after, mech, or elect, or both, as for how he uses it I dont care was just giving an opinion.

[dom w. forte]

This is an interesting thread. I have bought a factory manual for every complex mechanical thing I have ever owned, even while under factroy warranty. Knowledge is power. I have no idea why PCM would make such a policy. If a shade tree guy wants to buy a service manual and have at whatever task they choose to tackle with gusto and ultimately do more harm then good why is that their (PCM) concern? If I screw it up and then take to it to Dom or whomever to fix it the failures I caused are simply not covered, it's easy. I have to admit, I am not in them market for a new power plant(or boat) but this policy would negativity effect my likelihood of owning a PCM powered product.

Dom, you are by far above and beyond well above the "average " dealer/technician. I mean no disrespect to you personally and I wouldn't hesitate to have you perform any duties on anything I owned. You have earned that trust and respect thru your actions but my general belief is nobody typically cares about my "stuff" as much I do (the guy who owns it). You know what they call the stupid guys that BARELY graduated from a substandard medical school? They call him/her doctor and that fact is paramount until trust is proven. Same holds true for a marine tech, plumber, electrician, etc. I had no idea your wife was an ME. I am one of those engineer types and I would challenge you to gather up a handful of those "factory trained " PCM guys (not you or your guys, I am speaking generically) and lets do a systematic troubleshoot and/or problem solving test. Maybe me and WABoating are the rare cases but to say I am not "worthy " of owning technical information related to a product I purchased is ridiculous.

Sorry for the rant, the pile on to WABoating asking for information irritated me and besides...there is not much on TV. :-)
:-)

I never stated that anybody doesnt have the right to work on what ever product they own, I could care less, in fact it ussually makes me more money on a job, I was merely pointing out that if something gets messed up due to medling dont expect the manufacturer to be responsible even if you followed what you believe their shop manual instrutted, point in question was when WA BOATING changed a sensor on his engine as he stated, but I didnt see where he confirmed that it was bad first, and if their was a root cause for its failure.