Speedset will not adjust

[travis5550]

this is awesome, can't wait till JM is able to test it! what would be your going rate for repeating this process on others if we ship to you with return postage prepaid?

[IDBoating]

As I texted to JM... the patient is out of surgery and everything went well!

I didn't want to disassemble his panel any more than necessary. The reason his side buttons don't work is that the flex circuit has lost continuity with the +12VDC, so the snap domes don't have +12VDC to switch to the output pins when they are actuated.

The four snap domes for the two side areas share a common trace that runs around their four outer contact pads. Fixing this panel meant getting +12VDC to that shared outer trace. However, soldering to flex circuit is a risky game... while I've done it, you can easily melt the backing or lift the incredibly thin conductor(s) or all sorts of problems.

So, I decided to bypass the flex circuit entirely. +12VDC going to the flex circuit comes in on pin 8 of the flex connector, which is buried under the potting material. Some careful work with a Dremel tool (to reveal the pin without grinding it away) carved away enough of the potting material to give access to the rear of pin 8 on the connector. It's hard to tell from this photo, but that's a nice little lunar crater around the pin. It looks melted here, but it's actually not:
DremelHole.jpg

Then, I located a safe path through the potting material and drilled a 1/16th hole all the way through, from back to front. Now I had access to run a connection without interfering with the fit of the frame.

I soldered a section of 30 gauge rework wire to the back of pin 8 on the connector, and ran the other end of the wire through the hole:
FlexRepairBottom.jpg

Flipping the unit over, I carefully shaved away the overlays on one corner of one of the side snap domes. Then I tinned that corner, and soldered the wire to it:
FlexRepairTop.jpg

The result is a electrically and mechanically solid connection straight from +12VDC to the shared outer pads of the side snap domes. Once the soldered snap dome has +12VDC, it conveys +12VDC to the other snap domes via the same flex circuit traces that did so originally. Testing with a meter confirms proper operation on both sides with either or both of the snap domes in a given section.

Before sealing it up and shipping it back to JM, I've taken photos and high resolution scans of everything as well as caliper measurements of key dimensions, in case we decide to proceed with the aftermarket replacement board for these panels.

JM, I'll email or text you later today with the tracking number. Thanks for shipping this unit here!

EDIT: Finished testing after reassembly. All three buttons now work properly. Center button toggles between +12VDC and ground, others provide +12VDC during actuation. Should be ready for testing in JM's boat.

[Timmy!]

I'm in. I'm also willing to pay more money too. Think about it, a dealer's cost on this item is $850 and most dealer's aren't willing to part with it for that price, they are closer to the MSRP of $1,200. Without your alternative, I am paying a lot of $$$.

[IDBoating]

here you go, yes you are correct, its a self adhesive sheet that goes over the top of the final adhesive sheet that covers the snap domes.

What's the back of that black frame look like? I presume four screw holes that match up to the ones in the FPC insert? Hopefully that "footprint" is the same on all units, and those mounting holes can be used across the years.

[IDBoating]

here you go, yes you are correct, its a self adhesive sheet that goes over the top of the final adhesive sheet that covers the snap domes.

Any reason that same sheet couldn't be applied over a PCB with snap domes on it? I understand your later point about LED's but perhaps people could cut those away if they have your type of panel.

I was thinking of something that had the same connector and reused the same mounting holes and dash cut. probably an oval of silk screen printed stainless or black anodised aluminium. same dimensions as the SpeedSet.

So a sort of surface mount, then? These existing oval panels don't have a full sized "cutout" in the dash, then surface mount to it.

how were you thinking of mounting the bolts? if they were mounted onto the PCB they would need to be countersunk?

Not for the later style of rubber sheet. There's a relief area there. I know of a flat-top screw style that would fit nicely in that space.

unless we use 2 pcb's stacked and a SMT stack connector it would have to all be surface mount, which probably isn't ideal for the 12 way connector(if they even do a SMT version)

No. Just no! We're trying to IMPROVE this, remember?!? Domes on the front side, SMT's on the back. Connector is an issue but could flush grind its pins after soldering. Allowing for the labor is one reason I'm estimating $150-200 delivered. It's easy to underestimate the costs on something like this and lose your shirt. That said, $1250 is outrageous.

I don't have many photos of the model you have could you take a couple of the rear and front once assembled?

No problem, I'll take and post them in a bit.

[ChrisSnow]

Can you post a photo of those pieces? By "printed overlay" do you mean a vinyl sheet that lies over the top of the snap domes and FPC?

here you go, yes you are correct, its a self adhesive sheet that goes over the top of the final adhesive sheet that covers the snap domes.
IMAG0013.jpgIMAG0014.jpgIMAG0015.jpg

In an ideal world sure, but my goal is to have a drop-in replacement with minimum changes to the dash, wiring, etc. Virtually anyone can handle six screws and one connector, and the result would be an identical appearance with reliability that will outlive the rest of the boat. Doing a "complete replacement" increases the complexity and cost by requiring the development of a front panel (with appearance issues), mounting hardware and method, potential dash cutting, etc. etc. IMHO simpler is better for this particular project. Obviously others may disagree, and I think we're providing enough documentation in this thread that those folks can craft up their ideal solution!

I was thinking of something that had the same connector and reused the same mounting holes and dash cut. probably an oval of silk screen printed stainless or black anodised aluminium. same dimensions as the SpeedSet.
Were probably giving more info that anyone else wants! but like you say it's valuable info for anyone in future.

I assume you are thinking of reusing just the bezel and membrane? throwing away the rear moulding etc?
how were you thinking of mounting the bolts? if they were mounted onto the PCB they would need to be countersunk?
unless we use 2 pcb's stacked and a SMT stack connector it would have to all be surface mount, which probably isn't ideal for the 12 way connector(if they even do a SMT version)

I don't have many photos of the model you have could you take a couple of the rear and front once assembled?

looking at the photos I have seen of yours my enable is slightly off centred vertically, a bit lower so that the LED's and switch as a group is centred if that makes sense.

a common board might be possible, you would need to non fit the back light LED's as there's no clearance for them.

[IDBoating]

there is a few variations and they wont be a single drop in module that's compatible across the board.for example my AccuSet does not have a rubber membrane but has a printed overlay and the bezel includes some extra detailing to frame the switches.

Can you post a photo of those pieces? By "printed overlay" do you mean a vinyl sheet that lies over the top of the snap domes and FPC?

I think a complete replacement that requires zero reuse of components might be the answer, at least that way we could be confident that the end user would have a functional product, it would costs slightly more though.

In an ideal world sure, but my goal is to have a drop-in replacement with minimum changes to the dash, wiring, etc. Virtually anyone can handle six screws and one connector, and the result would be an identical appearance with reliability that will outlive the rest of the boat. Doing a "complete replacement" increases the complexity and cost by requiring the development of a front panel (with appearance issues), mounting hardware and method, potential dash cutting, etc. etc. IMHO simpler is better for this particular project. Obviously others may disagree, and I think we're providing enough documentation in this thread that those folks can craft up their ideal solution!

[IDBoating]

Keeps everything on this topic in a single convenient spot.

[ChrisSnow]

Sure I will do some measurements, We seem to manage to cross post an awful lot in this thread!

[ChrisSnow]

I agree a crowd funded project could be the answer.

Though as we already know there is a few variations and they wont be a single drop in module that's compatible across the board.for example my AccuSet does not have a rubber membrane but has a printed overlay and the bezel includes some extra detailing to frame the switches.

I think a complete replacement that requires zero reuse of components might be the answer, at least that way we could be confident that the end user would have a functional product, it would costs slightly more though.

I think the price could be better than $200 at 100 off quantities, even in volumes of 10 it could still be viable at a reasonable price.

other than the cost of a few prototypes which would be relatively low the final cost would only really depend on the volume ordered.

I personally would rather use something like the switches I linked above, I've never been a fan of tactile or snap dome switches especially in harsh conditions, these should last forever! the only downside is they would need to be relatively close together to get them through the hull cutout.

[IDBoating]

ChrisNow: Before you reassemble and reinstall your panel into your boat, could you please measure where your snap domes are located? I'm wondering if there's sufficient clearance to have a "one size fits both" PCB that would work for (your) older style rubber overlays (which expect three snap domes) and (JM's) newer style overlays (that expect 5-7).

We can use the four small mounting screw holes as reference points. Measuring from the nearest two of those to each snap dome will allow me to duplicate where yours are on JM's unit and see if clearances are sufficient.

Thanks!

[IDBoating]

Hmm... I'm thinking about a sort of "crowdsourcing" approach for this project. If enough people pre-ordered them to justify doing it, they could be delivered in 6-8 weeks and then the design would be available if more were required later. I wouldn't do this on the basis of "you betcha, I'll order just as soon as they're ready" because those deals never work out. It would have to be a pre-order thing, where if the minimum quantity wasn't hit everyone gets their money back.

A quick glance suggests that this could be done through Kickstarter.

How about it, TigeOwners: Any interest? How many people want to make their touchpads reliable?

[Ewok]

Sounds like a reasonable price for more reliable touch pads, there has to be at least 1,000 boats out there that will have this happen to them. I guess those of us with this touchpad will be like boaters that forget the plug; There are those who have and those who will.

[IDBoating]

As far as I can tell it just comes straight off the ignition supply on mine. If you think about it the battery should prevent any particularly nasty transients, I do agree that if it were my design that for the cost of a TVS and a poly-fuse you would include something!

That's the theory, but in practice it's not like that. It's dangerous to rely on the battery for transient suppression. Automotive systems always incorporate TVS devices even though they can pretty much guarantee there will be a battery in the circuit. There has been extensive testing and research on this, which is where I got that +/- 80V detail... that's WITH a battery!

Automotive electrical systems (which includes boats, not just land vehicles) have INCREDIBLY noisy and dirty power systems. Proper equipment design allows for this. It's a big reason the CAN bus standard is differential and not single ended.

[IDBoating]

Thoughts on a permanent solution:

It is entirely possible to keep the existing bezel, keep the existing rubber insert, and simply replace the backend assembly with a single PCB. This would not be a difficult project. It would not be expensive either, as long as there was some reasonable volume (at least 100 units, I'd say). I don't know how many of these are out there but if there were sufficient interest it would make for a tidy little project and I suspect the resulting board could be sold for under $200 shipped. As the photos in this thread show, removing that panel from the dash involves two screws and one connector. Four little Phillips screws and the old assembly comes out, the new one goes in, and it's fixed forever.

As these boats age, perhaps it will be worth it to work up a project like this.