Performance upgrades

[Germaine Marine]

We've done a great job of destroying the OPs thread. It went from, "has anyone done any engine mods?" to nearly bashing people for even thinking of doing such a thing. I wonder if there is another forum on web that has people discouraging HP upgrades. It's almost sacrilegious.

Oh well.....

Our boats are very different. I have the 6.0 "409HP" vs his 5.7. I think Michigan is around 1000 feet isn't it? Much LOWER than me. I love the idea of running 29mph at 3000 rpm. That would be great. The more I go over this the more I realize a supercharger is the way to go. I could probably get by with just a cam, but that doesn't change the need for a tune, which is the biggest hurdle. I will really dive into this come March/April. Still too cold to play boat mechanic.

Who has bashed you? I didnt see that. Definitely dont think as at all helpful. I just dont know of any performance upgrades that are going to steer your boat in the correct direction if thats what you are getting performance wise. Seriously.. I mean think about it. Your boat is really on one side of the extreme, so if you truly have cycled through all the correct props and are still on that side of the equation I question what a blower will really help. Josh are you sure that motor isnt hurt?

[chpthril]

sounds like a loaded wake boat that has hit its performance limit.

Ill say it again. These hulls are closer to a displacement (cruiser) hull then they are a planning hull. The hull will reach a point that no amount of engine power or prop or gear ratio, that will make it plan out.

Surf apparatuses like surf gate, TAPS-3, suck gate, etc, has made this even more clear. In other words, proving the theory. Heavily weighted in the aft, and we are fighting physics, not lack of engine power, prop specs are gear ratio.

To the OP, it will be easy to build that 5.7 into a high RPM/high HP performance engine. IMO, this is nto what I want in a water sports tow boat, unless im foot'n. it will be harder to build that 5.7 into a stump puller that peaks at a lower RPM , which is more ideal for what the boat is designed for.

[Brianrzr]

I love the tech talk and I’m glad to have gotten it started. I’m at 600 ft here with surf package. I’ve never WOT fully weighted, and I don’t know how accurate the speedo is, but I’m running 42 mph. The bikinis in the boat like to go fast. I am trying to understand why the 2:1 tranny simply doesn’t affect performance in the same way a prop with less pitch does, increase low end response and sacrificing top end. Like a 4x4 truck with its transfer case in low. One thing I have learned testing boats for work, a given weight requires a specific hp at reccomended rpm to WOT a certain speed. A steeper pitch drops rpm top speed is reduced and over all performance is sluggish. Less pitch increase low end response but the engine over rev’s also reducing top WOT speed. To achieve better OVERALL performance more hp is required. This testing is on bowriders, fishing boats and pontoons, not tow boats, so don’t beat me up too bad.

[Bakes5]

I’m sure your better at engines and boats than I, just throwing out some basics....

Prop key?
Secret stash of lead from prior owner?
Injectors clogged?
Compression check out?
Throwing any codes?
Non retracting surf system?

IDK...5K and 22MPH sounds like a loaded wake boat that has hit its performance limit. My buddy has a 24 foot Supra SSV with the 5.7 and it has great power. I just can’t see how your engine is working perfectly and your at 22 MPH, near WOT, in an unweighted boat. Unless of course you have extra ballast, something dragging or something slipping.

[Bakes5]

Seriously....5k rpm at 22MPH? Even a 12 pitch 2419 ran my Z3 at 30mph at 4200 RPM. Did you do any progressive RPM vs MPH testing? If so...let’s see the data. I see 5000 RPM AND 22 MPH and I start thinking there is something wrong with your engine or boat.

[freeheel4life]

Unstuck, does your MB have the trim plate?? Are you running around with the ballast in?? I don't see why you shouldn't get 24-26 at around 3300-3500RPM unless theres something I'm missing about the weight of your boat un-ballasted. Unless you are always boating at the 5k mark you've mentioned. Even then I'm surprised to hear you describing basically a WOT scenario at cruising speed.

[UNSTUCK]

We've done a great job of destroying the OPs thread. It went from, "has anyone done any engine mods?" to nearly bashing people for even thinking of doing such a thing. I wonder if there is another forum on web that has people discouraging HP upgrades. It's almost sacrilegious.

Oh well.....

Our boats are very different. I have the 6.0 "409HP" vs his 5.7. I think Michigan is around 1000 feet isn't it? Much LOWER than me. I love the idea of running 29mph at 3000 rpm. That would be great. The more I go over this the more I realize a supercharger is the way to go. I could probably get by with just a cam, but that doesn't change the need for a tune, which is the biggest hurdle. I will really dive into this come March/April. Still too cold to play boat mechanic.

[bsreid]

As we go back to the OP in this thread.

He’s running a very different boat than you, 3000lbs, 94” beam boat with probably the same engine as your massive mb. Granted he’s probably at a little higher elevation but that rzr hull is so versatile. You aren’t going to be putting 5k in a rzr, trust me I’ve tried... So with 3k in ballast the engine has more than enough power when properly propped. Cruising around 29mph right at or less than 3000rpm and pretty much the same for surfing with taps 3. And surfing listed will be less. Yeah going over 40 isn’t going to happen but really why wants to do that?

[UNSTUCK]

the perfect prop doesent exist meaning? One that can be a tug boat and cruise at 35? yeah you are prob right.

If you are talking about finding a prop that can give your boat tons of bottom with top end being the sacrificial lamb then I say you absolutely can.

You can custom tweak cup to do some pretty awesome things performance wise. Obviously the motor package with your current boat is a little under powered for elevation and weight, however I would be shocked if it truly was unfixable with a custom prop. Granted you have to be prepared to give up on one end of the spectrum. From what I remember you just cant get enough bottom right?

To recap from an earlier post:

A prop change works great up to a point. Unfortunately to do what we do at our elevation, it required a prop that runs the engine at 4500 surfing and over 5000 cruising at a SLOW 22 mph.

Can you imagine trying to get across Powell going only 22 at 5k? What would you consider to be a safe cruising engine speed? 3k? I'm ok doing it at a slow 22 mph, but I just can't be happy doing it at 5k rpm. Props, as you said, will not get me what I need. You can tweak cup all you want and it will totally change the prop, but you will never get more than a few hundred RPM change. At least I didn't.
Look what Tige is now doing. 2:1 transmissions and 17" props. That is one way of solving the problem. Also notice that the engines are only getting bigger too.

My prop list from last summer:
1st. 1235 Fast, good prop for listing stock ballast. No chance with 5000 lbs ballast.
2nd. 2937 SLOW, great prop for 5000 ballast. Our best surf prop. All around too high rpm for my comfort.
3rd. 2315 Dont really remember this one. Think it was still too high of RPM but wouldn't pull the full ballast.
4th. 2419 Good for about 3k lbs ballast. Usually around 3900 rpm surfing. Cruising still high and slow. We kept this one as the best compromise.

My goal is to surf at 5000 lbs ballast at under 4000 rpm and cruise in the upper 20's closer to 3000 rpm. The Supra SE 550 I tested in November blew me away at its power with that much ballast and LOW engine speeds, so I know it can be done.

[Germaine Marine]

the perfect prop doesent exist meaning? One that can be a tug boat and cruise at 35? yeah you are prob right.

If you are talking about finding a prop that can give your boat tons of bottom with top end being the sacrificial lamb then I say you absolutely can. You can talk to nettle and acme until you are blue in the face..... Their is only really one guy that I would talk to in regard to props and that happens to be the original owner of acme and thats Todd Diekevers. He has been paid to stay on with acme for a certain amount of time but that guy can tell you anything and everything you would need to know the same goes for Eric at OJ

You can custom tweak cup to do some pretty awesome things performance wise. Obviously the motor package with your current boat is a little under powered for elevation and weight, however I would be shocked if it truly was unfixable with a custom prop. Granted you have to be prepared to give up on one end of the spectrum. From what I remember you just cant get enough bottom right?

[UNSTUCK]

Mine is an Indmar also. It seems to be impossible to find information on them. I figured tuning the ECM would be the biggest hurdle. Please keep me informed what you find out. I agree about props, I have been completing a lot of prop tests for my employer and the results are not what people think. But that’s for another thread.

I went straight to Indmar through email and was very impressed with the information they gave me about what they did to my engine. I think they gave me all this information to scare me away from doing anything, but actually made it easier when I'm ready to go. Mast Motorsports is the only company I found that said they might be able to tune the Econtrols ECM. If I understand it right, there are two styles of these ECM's. They can tune one of them. Not the other. I just haven't uncovered my boat to look at which one I have, yet.

Props can be a pain to play with. Nettle Props and Acme have been absolutely awesome to work with on my search for the perfect prop, which I decided doesn't exist, despite what has been said on here.

[freeheel4life]

Well there are plenty of bolt on mods for the 5.7 out there but as mentioned you will run into ECM tuning issues. If you have Diacom you can change CAL files but as far as I remember from my indmar training there isn't really drastically different tunes for that engine. Each one was manufacturer specific and some manufacturer didn't run knock sensors so the tune is a little "safer" in that in runs fat fuel and retarded timing to keep it safe. Your Tige should have the knock sensors and in turn have the more aggressive tune.
So short of dropping a 6.0 in it I don't think you would get very far with bolt on mods, without doing what unstuck is talking about doing for ECM

[Brianrzr]

I have the stock Acme 1631. I know another prop will shift power around the rpm band, but there is not a problem more power won’t fix. Actually I don’t have any problems, I love the boat it does everything I want it too. I just like to build engines.

[bsreid]

Unless you’re at crazy elevation, the 335 is more than enough. We are at sea level, acme 1433, weighted evenly with taps 3, upwards of 3k in ballast and no problems what so ever. At times we wished we had the 1235 for a little more power.

[freeheel4life]

My question would also be how much weight are you running in your 20ft RZR that weighs less that 4k lbs?? Tige put that same Indmar 5.7 in RZ2 and in Z3s in that same period of time, cant recall for sure but think `14 was the first year that was the switch from PCM to Indmar. I have run both here at 3000 ft with lots of weight and had no problems. 1235 is a good all around here with weight and that motor and if you wanted to run heavy we would run the 2079. My thought process would be why do you need more out of said motor?