Sub Woes

[tige']

Phil,

No, I have not found another sub to try. All I have been able to do was check the resistance per Mike's instruction. And is was fine.

Is there any other way to check, the amp and/or sub?

[chpthril]

There is enough of surface area to use the side panel for the mounting plate. It is triangular shaped and wouldn't be tall enough to get the sub in it.

Above it, is the closet and I don't want to give that space up. Plus I think it would rattle the cabinet door on the other end really bad if I had it in there.

What are the 2 rectangles in your last diagram?

Sorry for the quick drawing, the small rectangles represent your Volt/Ohm meter, the circle is the sub, big rectangle is amp.

[philwsailz]

Phil,

No, I have not found another sub to try. All I have been able to do was check the resistance per Mike's instruction. And is was fine.

Is there any other way to check, the amp and/or sub?

Sorry. Yeah, I was trying to be brief, (something folks here know I have a hard time doing)...

Mike is right on the money in asking you to check the resistance, but it is possible to have other problems with the woofer and still have the coil(s) measure out fine. One example is a woofer with an aluminum voice coil. Nail it hard with a music signal and if it hits the back of the motor assembly, you can bend the voice coil and cause it to sieze up on the pole piece; the piece of metal that goes up through the center of the voice coil.

Another way it can be bad and still meter out is if the glue bond between the coil wire turns and the voice coil former has let go. The coil of wire will try to move in and out, but since it is loose on the former, it slides up and down on the former making a nasty mechanical rubbing noise...

You need to connect it to the amp, and listen to it. It will not make any bass outside of the enclosure or a mounting wall, but if you hold your ear close, you can listen for clean, distortion-free sound coming off of the woofer. If it sounds rough, scratchy or badly distorted, there is a problem with the woofer.

I am concerned we are trying something with this woofer that really should not be done... As Tim and Mike have pointed out, this is an infinite-baffle woofer, AKA free-air woofer and 2 cu. ft. is too small for it to work really well. That being said, the problems you originally described seem maybe to be caused by something mroe than just your original enclosure design and fabrication... It would be good to know we are really working with a properly functioning amp and woofer. If it turnds out something is wrong there, no box or mounting configuration is gonna make it sound good.


We can get it done buddy!

[tige']

At this point I am ready to give up on the sub and try another woofer. (I would like to check the amp before I do that but don't know how...)

There may not be anything wrong with woofer at all, it may just be that it doesn't sound like I want or that particular sub isn't going to work well in the "box" or area that I have. (Which is kind of what everyone is telling me).

Now, for the big question (since there may biased opions here ), what sub will work best for my area and my amp - Cadence SQA-1.

I am looking at JL Audio (which is the only other marine sub that I have heard and I thought it sounded really good), Wetsounds and Kicker (but I am open to any others). I need to check to see if I have the room to go to a 12" sub but the 10" JL Audio would go right into the hole I already have, which is a nice bonus.

I would have to cut the hole slightly larger for a 10" Wetsounds or Kicker. If I were to do that, I could see if I have room to get a 12" in there (if it made sense to go with a 12").

Thanks for everyones help!!

[philwsailz]

Ay...

The $64,379.52 question.

500 watts into a single 4-ohm load, or 700 watts into a 2-ohm load.

You have lots of options based on that. Kicker's L7 square woofers and CVX round woofers will handle that kind of power. Tim can chime in with his recommendations too on a Wetsounds woofer.

It will come down to how much box you can get away with, and what your ears tell you. Anyone can say their "brand x" woofer sounds totally better than the next guy's "brand y" but ultimately it will come down to what you like. I know that might sond funny coming from the Kicker guy, but if for some reason you hate how the Kicker woofer sounds, no amount of coaxing from me will convince you it sounds good... Sort of like the Emperor's New Clothes... The Kicker woofers mentioned will work well, if you like the way they sound.

We already know you are challenged from a space standpoint, so you will probably want to go with the woofer that is optimized for a smaller enclosure; something that fits in the 2 cubic foot or so that you say you have available. The power you are playing with dictates a solid enclosure, almost certainly sealed. Since we are talking sealed, 12" woofers make sense due to the cone area...


Understand, you are gonna rattle the compartment doors, and lots of other things... Not much you can do about that. Your goal at this point os going to be to get the system loud enough so that at the point everything is rattling, the stereo is so loud, you cannot hear the rattles....

[tige']

Well, unfortuantely, I am not going to be able to listen anything other than the JL Audio 10" sub because that is the only Marine sub I have found in my area that is hooked to anything (in a friends boat).

I don't have any boat dealers near me with marine systems to listen to, the local appliance department stores (Best Buy and American Appliance are all I have near by) don't deal with marine systems....

And I know it will sound different in my application anyway.

I was thinking of staying with a 4 ohm infinite baffle sub mounted in the face plate and leave the side panel removed, to reduce the rattling, is where I would start. Then add the side panel back in and see what the difference is (even though it isn't air tight).

It would be nice just to mount something directly in the hole without any more modification so I was leaning toward the JL Audio.

All three of the 10" Wetsounds, Kicker and JL Audio I looked at are free air and will work from a 1.0 to a little over 2 cu ft enclosure. My area is approx 2.0 cu ft (without the sub itself in there) so I should be OK with that??

Spring is coming ....I want to get this bad boy ready for the lake!!

Thanks again for all the help..

[philwsailz]

Then TOTALLY trust me when I say that the Kicker woofers are the VERY BEST sounding woofers on the planet! Hee heehee, had to. I understand the issue at hand. Franky, I know you will be happy with anythig Tim or I help you with...

That being said...
If the back of the woofer is open to your listening area, like shown in your pics with the side panel removed, it will not make bass. I am afraid you need to rip out what you have and start over...

A quick explanation:
The frequencies we are trying to reproduce have wavelengths that are very long. They bend around things. When there is a positive pressure wave being produced on the front of the woofer, a negative pressure wave is being produced on the back side of the woofer. If you do not fully isolate the back side of the woofer, the negative pressure wave from the back side mixes in and cancels out the bass.

No woofer is going to sound good in your enclosure with the side panel off due to this. You either need to mount a free air woofer in a large storage compartment, or build a completely sealed enclosure. Both do the job of isolating the sound from the back of the woofer. An enclosure goes further, but using the trapped air as a spring; that is why we start talking abou tuning and minimum volumes and all that... Really an enclosure does both; isolates the sound from the back of the woofer AND it adds spring compliance to the total system to control excursion and dial in the desired optimum resonance.

This stuff can and is frustrating at times.. You did a beautiful job of integrating the panels and pulling the carpet down, and working with what you had to try to define the enclosure that you did. I hate to see you throw away that hard work, but I am afraid that is what you are up against.

Which specific woofer models are you loooking at from Wetsounds, Kicker and JL? Maybe we can decide from the models you are looking at based on their performance specs... Again, I would love to say that you need my woofer, but I am here to be objecitve and help make a good decision...

Tim? Time for you to chime in here. What do you think? Lets get this going down a path towards a good solution.

[tige']

LOL...I wish there was some way I could listen to all these speakers. I appreciate your objective opinion and honesty Phil, plus you make this kind of fun!! You are definitely taking the edge off of the frustrating part.

Well, I measured again and I must have made a mistake the first time. The enclosure is actually even smaller than I thought, I get 1.40 cu ft. and this would be the outside dimension. The area is about 15" tall and 17" deep (that would be the triangular side). So 1/2 that area times the 19" wide gets me 1.40 cu ft.

If I need to re-do it or possibly even move it (but I don't know where) I am OK with that. But I would like to try to make the best of this first and see what I can get out of it.

Depending on depth, I could probably get a 12" speaker in there, but I don't know if that will help much.

The 10" woofers I was looking at. (and I am open to others)

10" Speaker, Free Air Options

JL Audio = M10IB5-SG-TB, Min = 1.25 cu ft, Optimum = 2.0 cu ft
http://marine.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?prod_id=393

Wetsounds = XS-10FA, .7 cu ft
http://www.wetsounds.com/pages/products/XS-10FA.html


10" Enclosed

Kicker = KM10 (I thought this was free-air??) = ? cu ft?
http://www.kicker.com/km10

JL Audio = M10W5-SG-TB, .50 - 1.00 cu ft.
http://marine.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?prod_id=394

[chpthril]

With your dimensions above, you have a 1.04 internel volume - a little for the sub.

If mounting depth in an issue, look at Kicker's CompVT 400W's rms/800w's max, but just a little over 4" depth for both the 10 and 12. Sealed enclosure = .8 for the 10" and 1.0 for the 12".

Your amp is too much for the KM10.

[chpthril]

Why not just make one solid wall across under the helm. Plenty of room for either a full enclosed box (sealed or vented) or a baffle board for a free-air setup! I know you were wanting to match the carpet.

[tige']

Yea, it will be a small box....much smaller than I originally thought.

There is a lot of storage space up in there that I don't really want to give up. It goes way up there and back pretty deep. I could mount a board way up in there and still have the floor space. But making a panel to fit around the side would require some custom trimming and some work to get good mounting points.

I might try to find a space or large solid box to see what the Alpine would sound like if it were in something bigger. I am just curious how much different it would be..I still have a flat panel that I cut my first hole in. I can mount the sub in that and try it in some different places to see what I get.

[wetsounds1]

sorry been out of towwn!

Tige,

Do you have a Tige dealers near you? If so, you can take a listen to the factory Tige system. It uses a Wet Sounds XS-10FA in a free air set up. So you can get an idea.

But even when doing a free air set up no matter the woofer. chptril idea is the best. You want to make a solid baffle across to simulate an enclosure.

It looks like you have enough room for a 12 inch. And if you make the box use that space and build a trim panel like what chptril drew. That would give you great bass in that space.

Tim
Wet Sounds

[philwsailz]

We have an agreement from me... Chp's idea on the surface might seem a pain, but based on everything we know so far, it seems the best solution at the moment. A solid baffle all the way across will work real well.

Hi Tim!

The Kicker SKM10 subwoofer enclosure uses a KM10 in a sealed enclosure that is about 1.1 cubic feet. that woofer is good as an infinite baffle woofer, but it works well in our pre-made enclosure as well. That being said, CHP is right; the amp you have is about 2x the power that a KM10 needs; you have an opportunity to use a higher-power woofer for your application, as well as going with a 12.

Finally, as a reminder... you STILL are going to rattle hinges and latches... That lets you know you are doing it right!!!!

Let us know!

Phil

[chpthril]

Finally, as a reminder... you STILL are going to rattle hinges and latches... That lets you know you are doing it right!!!!

Let us know!

Phil

Rattling the boat apart is a good problem to have

[tige']

I made some progress today.....

This is going to sound REALLY stupid but it helped a lot to turn the bass up!!!

Before I sound like a complete idiot, let me elaborate. I had made all my adjustments with everything flat. Then I played with the Z-Enhancer mode (Clarion head unit equalizer feature) a little bit and I liked the sound I had with one of those settings so I left it there most of the time. BUT...When you use the Z-Enhancer mode you lose the ability to adjust bass and treble, so I wasn't playing with it.

The few times I did (turned off the Z-EHCR), the higher bass was working the in-boats and towers really hard and they were distorting a little (plus I wanted mostly the highs to get more power out of everything). So I always turned it back down.

This evening I was playing with just the sub (I pulled the RCA's on the in-boats and towers) and I decided to turn the Z-Enhancer off and crank the bass up. The sub just came alive!!

So I turned the crossover settings up a little more on the other 2 amps, plugged them back in and it all sounded pretty good. I still have some fine tuning to do but the kids had to go to bed.

I know there is still a lot of room for improvement with my enclosure, but I literally had no bass before (or very little). I will keep playing around with my enclosure and I still might want a different sub eventually but for now I am just happy that all my components are apparently good and I can get some bass out of it.

I really appreciate everyones help and patience. I apologize for my ignorance, you guys are on page 962 and I am on like page 7!!