Importance of "Marine" rated wire

[mls6722]

We have done testing and there is a video we have done that shows you can lose significant amounts of power output due to voltage drop in CCA wire. Let me find it.


Here is a good video showing the test rig our tech team developed. The two guys in the video are not Kicker employees, but they are Kicker dealers. Here is their vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH7s18qn2LE

I am sharing this one because this video goes through and shows the time component and how the internal resistance causes wire to heat, and heat differently. Bottom line, CCA works, but you get less power out of the amp due to the fact that you have a greater voltage drop between the amp and the battery. Obviously, with shorter cable runs, you will see less voltage drop...

Keep in mind, we often listen to tunes while parked in party cove. When sitting without the motor running you will be at battery voltage, not charging voltage. Based on the measured voltage drops shown in this video, it is conceivable that you could have your stereo cutting out due to under-voltage conditions at the amplifier terminals, simply because you are using CCA cable instead of real-deal copper wiring. There is a real difference, and as you see in this video, copper is demonstrably better.

Phil
Kicker

My original question was on the speaker wire. I am interested if the copper coating helps the performance in AC which I believe is more prone to travel on the skin of the individual strands.
Power to my AMPs is 10 feet 1/0 copper welding cable to a distribution block with 2-3 feet of 4AWG to each amp. Oh, and I didn't coil my power wire - That video is a pretty bad representation of heating. Not a good idea to coil the power feeders.
I agree that you would be crazy to use CCA power unless you double the size.
Interesting that large commercial aircraft for weight reasons use aluminum power feeders from the engine generators to the EE bay power panels and run them with spacers in the 3 wire bundle to allow air circulation. 90 KVA 3 phase 115 VAC 400 Hz with less than 1/0 wire.

[.NOBODY]

In my opinion, marine grade wire plus soldering is the only way to go, salt or fresh water.

I'm completely redoing my stereo wiring and you bet I'm using tinned coated copper.

Look at the factory OEM speaker wiring and guess what....it's tinned coated, soldered and I've never had an issue (7 years later in salt environment).

Do it right, do it once or dont do it at all.

[Timmy!]

Nice video, Phil! Pretty amazing to see the voltage drop. Also interesting to see the amps power drop due to the voltage drop.

[philwsailz]

We have done testing and there is a video we have done that shows you can lose significant amounts of power output due to voltage drop in CCA wire. Let me find it.


Here is a good video showing the test rig our tech team developed. The two guys in the video are not Kicker employees, but they are Kicker dealers. Here is their vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH7s18qn2LE

I am sharing this one because this video goes through and shows the time component and how the internal resistance causes wire to heat, and heat differently. Bottom line, CCA works, but you get less power out of the amp due to the fact that you have a greater voltage drop between the amp and the battery. Obviously, with shorter cable runs, you will see less voltage drop...

Keep in mind, we often listen to tunes while parked in party cove. When sitting without the motor running you will be at battery voltage, not charging voltage. Based on the measured voltage drops shown in this video, it is conceivable that you could have your stereo cutting out due to under-voltage conditions at the amplifier terminals, simply because you are using CCA cable instead of real-deal copper wiring. There is a real difference, and as you see in this video, copper is demonstrably better.

Phil
Kicker

[chpthril]

Doing a bit of research this week, the OFC wire provides more power to the end of the run than the CCA. It also appears to run cooler after extended use. I'm assuming the 2 go hand in hand. Heat = lost power.

Just keep in mind that amp output is AC

[carcrz]

100% o2 free is better than CCA. Will you notice a diff in sound quality???? No, not at all.

Doing a bit of research this week, the OFC wire provides more power to the end of the run than the CCA. It also appears to run cooler after extended use. I'm assuming the 2 go hand in hand. Heat = lost power.

[chpthril]

100% o2 free is better than CCA. Will you notice a diff in sound quality???? No, not at all.

[mls6722]

I have a related question. What are thoughts on copper coated aluminum speaker wire vs oxygen free copper?

[viking]

If the amps you are using have only a set screw directly impinged upon the wire strands, the amp is not USCG or ABYC compliant, i.e not legal for use in new boat construction. Most marine amp manufacturers are not aware of this. I know one amp manufacturer that recognizes the set screw directly onto the wire is bad...

Hmmmm, I wonder what manufacturer that is?

[philwsailz]

Sorry for the delay, I had a few meeting to attend to.

Agreed that the tone is completely lost and that it is just debate.

So, in the experiment with the completely soldered wire, if we were to make an apples to apples comparison we would have to impart the compressive load to a strand of wire and attempt the same bending exercise to determine which is better. My argument is that the combined stresses imparted by the compressive load and the bending would cause the unsoldered connection to fail sooner. In reality, it would be impossible to perform this experiment because of the inability to apply the compressive load without crimping the entire length of wire.

Similarly, regarding the power wires on the amp, we are now considering a non-uniform crimp. It's essentially a set screw threaded into either a hole or a square box. So there is point loading generated where the load imparted by the set screw is not uniformly distributed across the entire strand of wires. In this instance, fewer wires in a stranded connection are anchored by the set screw and therefore carry even more stress than the surrounding wires. This is evidenced by removing the wire and seeing the indentation of the set screw. So, there are fewer strands to support the load and therefore it a higher potential for breakage. This has always been a problem area. Generally what I end up doing it cutting out a portion of the strands, soldering them, and then installing them. That's the issue with solder, it makes the end considerably bigger. So, there is a potential for some voltage drop there, but I think it outweighs the risk of having the wires come pop out and touch one another.

Truth be know I have done it both ways. I've never used the industrial crimpers, but would be more than happy to do so if someone sent me a pair of them! I've always used the klien brand crimpers and have even been guilty of using the kliens as strippers. I developed a severe distaste for crimped connections after fixing a few alarm systems and even a few trailers that have T-Taps and Blue Butts.

But, like you guys have said, human error has a lot to do with the quality of the connection. A little practice and some patience go a long way. Happy wiring!

If the amps you are using have only a set screw directly impinged upon the wire strands, the amp is not USCG or ABYC compliant, i.e not legal for use in new boat construction. Most marine amp manufacturers are not aware of this. I know one amp manufacturer that recognizes the set screw directly onto the wire is bad...

[carcrz]

Klein crimpers are The only tools I let my guys use. I solder EVERY battery cable connection and am in the middle of wiring an inverter with 2/0 cable and commonly do connections at 4/0 for some of our 12 and 16 cylinder diesel starter and ground applications. 16 years and none have failed. I pool heated solder (map gas, propane takes too long) in the terminal end, clamped in a vice, using a spool of it until the "cup" is at least half full then immediately jam the stripped cable end into the terminal end and it sets immediately. There is no wicking or migration of solder up the stranded cable and the ONLY way to remove the soldered terminal ends without cutting them off is from about 2-3 minutes of direct heat from a map gas torch which will burn the cable sheathing well before the solder reheats enough to become liquid. I conducted this test at a customers request with him present and as a result give a lifetime guarantee on all wiring we do.
The ABYC standard actually states "...solder shall not be the only means of mechanical connection in any circuit." This is often incorrectly interpreted as "you can't use solder!" And what it actually means is you can't solder your battery cable to the battery post.

method I had planned on using if I don't crimp.

[boatwakes]

Klein crimpers are The only tools I let my guys use. I solder EVERY battery cable connection and am in the middle of wiring an inverter with 2/0 cable and commonly do connections at 4/0 for some of our 12 and 16 cylinder diesel starter and ground applications. 16 years and none have failed. I pool heated solder (map gas, propane takes too long) in the terminal end, clamped in a vice, using a spool of it until the "cup" is at least half full then immediately jam the stripped cable end into the terminal end and it sets immediately. There is no wicking or migration of solder up the stranded cable and the ONLY way to remove the soldered terminal ends without cutting them off is from about 2-3 minutes of direct heat from a map gas torch which will burn the cable sheathing well before the solder reheats enough to become liquid. I conducted this test at a customers request with him present and as a result give a lifetime guarantee on all wiring we do.
The ABYC standard actually states "...solder shall not be the only means of mechanical connection in any circuit." This is often incorrectly interpreted as "you can't use solder!" And what it actually means is you can't solder your battery cable to the battery post.

[JohnnieMo]

You can tell it's February... we are having a riveting debate on how and when to solder a wire.

I miss the 'see your classic wave' thread now.

Sent from my Passport

[SBM1234]

Sorry for the delay, I had a few meeting to attend to.

Agreed that the tone is completely lost and that it is just debate.

So, in the experiment with the completely soldered wire, if we were to make an apples to apples comparison we would have to impart the compressive load to a strand of wire and attempt the same bending exercise to determine which is better. My argument is that the combined stresses imparted by the compressive load and the bending would cause the unsoldered connection to fail sooner. In reality, it would be impossible to perform this experiment because of the inability to apply the compressive load without crimping the entire length of wire.

Similarly, regarding the power wires on the amp, we are now considering a non-uniform crimp. It's essentially a set screw threaded into either a hole or a square box. So there is point loading generated where the load imparted by the set screw is not uniformly distributed across the entire strand of wires. In this instance, fewer wires in a stranded connection are anchored by the set screw and therefore carry even more stress than the surrounding wires. This is evidenced by removing the wire and seeing the indentation of the set screw. So, there are fewer strands to support the load and therefore it a higher potential for breakage. This has always been a problem area. Generally what I end up doing it cutting out a portion of the strands, soldering them, and then installing them. That's the issue with solder, it makes the end considerably bigger. So, there is a potential for some voltage drop there, but I think it outweighs the risk of having the wires come pop out and touch one another.

Truth be know I have done it both ways. I've never used the industrial crimpers, but would be more than happy to do so if someone sent me a pair of them! I've always used the klien brand crimpers and have even been guilty of using the kliens as strippers. I developed a severe distaste for crimped connections after fixing a few alarm systems and even a few trailers that have T-Taps and Blue Butts.

But, like you guys have said, human error has a lot to do with the quality of the connection. A little practice and some patience go a long way. Happy wiring!

[chpthril]

I heard electricians have wire nuts