very expensive design mistake on my tige v-drive

[SPBFAN]

It is funny that this is all coming up. This weekend we decided against the boat and took out the wave runners. We helped a fellow runner in distress. His runner was full of water and would not start. He was hanging on one side to keep it from flipping over so the bilge could pump the water out. We quickly tied up with some quick release knots and pulled him to shore. Once he trailered the runner and drained the water he started it back up. I inspected it with him. His bilge was not working and it was not pumping water the pump was running but not pumping water. He told me that it would be OK and I suggested against it. He put it back into the lake and 15 minutes later he was upside down in the water again.

We drove by him and waved as we passed. First time shame on them. Second time shame on me and a third time would be stupidity to help. I generally don't go past the first time. I took a big risk to help him off the lake so his runner would not sink and his common sense was a little lacking so I did not get involved again. I don't think this has anything to do with this thread but I needed to post it somewhere.

[dogbert]

I've never seen a boat with a snorkel/air intake duck like cars & trucks use Every boat I've seen and worked on has the flame arrester right on the carb/throttle body and most have a shroud over that would prevent a direct water spray from being sucked in. If this engine sucked water from the bilge, how deep was it over your feet?

It's typical for boat builders to have a bilge vent hose from the vent to the bilge floor, and from another vent, to the blower, and from the blower to the floor. This way, it draws fresh air through the hose, down into the bilge floor, and out the other hose through the blower and out the other vent. It would be possible to have water enter the vent(s) and run to the bilge, but I'm having a hard time visualizing the water being high enough to be sucked into the T/body or splashing directly onto the T/body. Perhaps a hose is split or fallen off, or the bilge pump is inop........Sorry, but these would fall under the "inspect before every trip" category.

Sorry to here that your boat has engine trouble, regardless of what happened. Please post pics of your transom, engine, and vents to give us an idea of how this happened, I am very curious.

Sorry, but I have to call on this. The problem is that water gets into the bilge every time you come off of plane wakeboarding, skiing or otherwise. The bilge pump is located in front of the V-Drive at the lowest point of the bilge when the boat is on the the trailer. There has to be at least 3" of water in the bilge for the bilge pump start working when it's floating in the water. All that water rushes to the back where it gets sprayed all around the engine compartment because the alternator is mounted at the lowest point on the engine. The alternator has small vanes on it to help assist this process. My flame arrestor looks like it was designed to capture water being sprayed from underneath.

All this because of the blower vent design that looks like it's designed to scoop up water. See below the black scoop above the handrail and to the left of my koozie. The fiberglass transom is indented towards the bow to act like a water scoop.



It's one of the few really dumb things on my boat. I love my boat, but I always get annoyed when I see that.

[dogbert]

Here's a better view of what I'm talking about.

[Duncan]

So, in another thread re boat sinking, Timmy made the excellent suggestion for a quick setup bow cover to protect against water coming over the bow in nasty water conditions.

In this thread, Dogbert referenced air intakes on the windshield of some older and newer Tiges (RZ2?). Are those air intakes at the base of the outside of the windshield?

If so, could putting on a bow cover when you have lots of water coming over the bow end up funneling water right to the intakes (assuming they are present at the base of the windshield)?

I tell ya, this forum makes me (more) paranoid

[chpthril]

Mr. Dogbert,

Please be a little more specific on what statement in my post you feel the need to call on, thank you.

[samw]

Sorry, but I have to call on this. The problem is that water gets into the bilge every time you come off of plane wakeboarding, skiing or otherwise. The bilge pump is located in front of the V-Drive at the lowest point of the bilge when the boat is on the the trailer. There has to be at least 3" of water in the bilge for the bilge pump start working when it's floating in the water. All that water rushes to the back where it gets sprayed all around the engine compartment because the alternator is mounted at the lowest point on the engine. The alternator has small vanes on it to help assist this process. My flame arrestor looks like it was designed to capture water being sprayed from underneath.

All this because of the blower vent design that looks like it's designed to scoop up water. See below the black scoop above the handrail and to the left of my koozie. The fiberglass transom is indented towards the bow to act like a water scoop.



It's one of the few really dumb things on my boat. I love my boat, but I always get annoyed when I see that.

I agree with Dog, I have an 01 which is the same boat as Dog's 99. That blower vent is a funnel. Comment on chpthril go look at 05 or newer mc. My bro n law has and X45 it has a K&N air filter on it's intake. So so manufactors do use a regular air filter. I also have to move another bilge to the back of the boat so I can get all water out. It is alway in the back of you mind when your driving and someone is surfing, that you can't just slow down or stop or a wall of water comes rushing up and over the blower vent. Just my thoughts. Still love my Tige

[lethalwillie]

i am not saying this is a common occurrence. i am not saying it is likely to happen. i am saying it happened to me exactly like i have told it. i don't care who believes me or who does anything to guard against this in their boat. i don't care. i know i will do something. take a look at the pcm website at the new motors- some kind of plastic cover over the spark arrestor. interesting.

i have gotten a lot of good info on this website. i have rarely had anything worth adding of any value, and it is not a hobby of mine to chit chat on a website or bash people who post things i don't agree with. this motor damage and my steering cable fix are the only things i have ever had to add and thought i should. plus i did ask for a name. that's it. i have no plans to contact tige again about this. like i said i didn't expect them to help but i thought it was worth a try.

it is at least very interesting how many people on here have accused me of lying. at least as interesting to me is how emotional some people are about a boat. it is almost comical to me to see that some folks don't seem to realize that tige, just like gm, or john deere, has as its primary goal to make money- not to make 100% satisfied customers, or the perfect boat. but to be as profitable as they can be. that is the way it should be. i am sure that involves a balance of satisfied customers like me, and profitability. if you assume this is true, then it is foolish and naive to believe that tige or any other company is not willing to cut a few corners or accept a traditional design in the name of profitability(ie steering cables and fuel guages). does that make them liable or bad people? no. would it be ok for them to help out a good customer when he has been financially affected by a "shortcut". i think so, but if they choose not to, that's fine too. very clearly some great people on this website and invaluable info, but these idiots that have nothing to add but accusations and weak attempts at humor contribute nothing and make it harder and more time consuming to sift through the helpful information.

[chpthril]

I agree with Dog, I have an 01 which is the same boat as Dog's 99. That blower vent is a funnel. Comment on chpthril go look at 05 or newer mc. My bro n law has and X45 it has a K&N air filter on it's intake. So so manufactors do use a regular air filter. I also have to move another bilge to the back of the boat so I can get all water out. It is alway in the back of you mind when your driving and someone is surfing, that you can't just slow down or stop or a wall of water comes rushing up and over the blower vent. Just my thoughts. Still love my Tige

Funny thing, I dont disagree with his post, but cant figure what part of my post he is calling as i've only posted what I know of boat and have seen.

Never said you wont find an air filter on boats, but you will find a USCG spark arrestor on there also. Could be that the K&N is both an air filter and USCG approved S/A. I'll see what I can find out today about the Indmar engines.

[lethalwillie]

long story short, water down in the hull, when the boat surged forward, splased against the forward sloping back hull wall and was sucked into the motor intake(which is only covered by a metal screen type spark arrestor that faces rearward-no filter), hydrolocking the motor. bilge does work so not the problem. when i get my boat back i will make some sort of modification to prevent this, either install some sort of filter, or route the intake around forward of the motor, as long as pcm ok's it for me. i do encourage anyone with this configuration to check into it and consider doing something.

i am reposting this since the thread has gotten so long and some people apparently didn't see this.

[samw]

Funny thing, I dont disagree with his post, but cant figure what part of my post he is calling as i've only posted what I know of boat and have seen.

Never said you wont find an air filter on boats, but you will find a USCG spark arrestor on there also. Could be that the K&N is both an air filter and USCG approved S/A. I'll see what I can find out today about the Indmar engines.

chpthril I also agree with you, I was just giving a example of what I have seen. Just and FYI.

[Jason B]

Lethalwillie,
Take what is said here with a grain if salt. I don't think anyone called you a "liar" sounds like some of them had thier own opinions on the probability of it happenening the way you said--not that you were maliciously telling tales.
Use what is of value to you and ignore the rest.

ps. Some of us DO indeed have a surplus of free time...we know...we're taking steps to get help.
My name is Jason and I'm a postaholic, it's been 15 minutes since my last post...........

[Redlined]

Willie, since your reposting, this is how I arrived at my opinion, and this was your work:

"there is always water in my hull. when sitting on a level trailer, the low point on that hull is near the front. i would assume if sitting still in the water, kids in and out soaking wet, people sitting up front and under bimini tilting the boat forward a little more, there would be even more water in there, enough to slam rearward and splash on top of the motor. the only time i ever get all that water out is to park on a very steep ramp and pull the plug, which i do anytime i use one that steep."

I haven't seen one person call you a liar. I see some, that don't agree with you assessment of a flawed design or how your design flaw apparently presented itself. While it could've happened as stated, you coulda done lots more to prevent it as well, and that's what we call "operater" error in the field. There's a big difference between operater error and equipment failure.

[lethalwillie]

you coulda done lots more to prevent it as well

couldn't agree more. wish i had known this could happen. i never really thought about how exposed the intake is. i plead complete ignorance! however the fact remains, it can happen, and did.

[chpthril]

I agree with Dog, I have an 01 which is the same boat as Dog's 99. That blower vent is a funnel. Comment on chpthril go look at 05 or newer mc. My bro n law has and X45 it has a K&N air filter on it's intake. So so manufactors do use a regular air filter. I also have to move another bilge to the back of the boat so I can get all water out. It is alway in the back of you mind when your driving and someone is surfing, that you can't just slow down or stop or a wall of water comes rushing up and over the blower vent. Just my thoughts. Still love my Tige

Here's your K&N USCG J1928 approved airfilter/spark arrestor. This is NOT a regular automotive air filter!

http://www.knfilters.com/marine/default.htm

"Marine Approved per SAE J1928 Flame Arrestor Standard
Coast Guard Regulations stipulate that all gasoline-powered watercraft be equipped with flame arrestors. Until now, that meant choosing between a Coast Guard citation or restricted airflow. The K&N Flame Arrestor eliminates the need to choose. K&N’s Flame Arrestor is the performance and safety product that boat owners have been waiting for."

[dogbert]

Mr. Dogbert,

Please be a little more specific on what statement in my post you feel the need to call on, thank you.

Sorry, I was just trying to explain how water might have gotten up into lethalwillie's throttlebody. It really wouldn't take much water to do this based on my boat design and my own experience. My bilge pump was working, but I apparently didn't collect enough water to have it go off automatically. I also drain my boat after every use. It still trashed my alternator and after learning about this, I also discovered that water had been spraying all over my engine compartment. Given my flame arrestor design, I can easily see how water spraying around could get into my engine.

The funnel, as samw refers to it (rather correctly so), literally takes the water that rolls up the transom and feeds it through my blower vent, through my blower into the engine. I've had to replace my blower multiple times and I finally stopped using it because it keeps shorting out. To me, putting the blower vent in a position where it will take on water is a poor design. You can flame me all you want, but I'll stand by my statement.

I also think a couple of the guys were a little hard on lethalwillie. He clearly tried to allow Tige to work something out with him and it looks like he's getting some help from PCM. Either way, the blower vent and air intake design on some of the older Tiges is not what I would call optimal. Take a close look at the indentation below the black blower vent cover and you will see how water might get up in there every time a wake (either my own or someone elses) might get water into my blower intake and drain into my bilge.

I had to move my bilge so it would actually drain more water out when I was on the water and will probably have to add a second bilge to really take care of the problem.

I think it's dumb.

And yes, I still love my boat.