Dealers Pulling away from TIGE

[freeheel4life]

MB sport boats is named after Mike Brendella. Next generation/evolution of Ski Brendella ski boats.

The German nailed it. Let me preface by saying I'm a tech, not in sales. Just my observation. But when you stack an Rseries that you have to order without a 400 (detuned 360), non power tower, rev 8s, and some other options to keep them low on price, and then put a bigger boat, rev 10s, bigger motor right next to it at the same price, welll...
Does a Craz hold a candle to a Z or RZ series boat though, not a chance. Put a Z3 up against a Supra SA though and you've got a shootout, just ask dakota4ce about it, bet I know what he says.
People like what they like. Just had a guy trade in his one year old r21 for an r23e because he wanted more room. Didn't even look at a moomba or supra. Have guys trading in 2 year old z3s on new custom Tiges for this year. These trades also get new customers that can't quite afford a new Tige into a nice boat and hooked on Tige as a brand. Tige builds a great boat and has a phenomenal base. Doesn't mean people can't have options from the same dealer.

[sandm]

I think it's good to have a dealer with multiple lines if you really like the dealer and think they will offer good service, but is interesting to see 2 competing brands- in this case supra and tige at prestige in boise- being offered at the same dealer. with the "I want it now" philosophy of some, the boat on the floor will be the one that gets sold and if supra makes him order more stock boats than tige, guess which brand is moving more product in the valley. maybe i'm off base but do consider supra and tige competing for the same consumer $$ and bet they are cross-shopped pretty regularly. I know I shopped skiers products before buying the 22ve from tyrell but at the time, tige, mb and supreme were the go-to surf boats in the sub 80k market.

boise is an interesting market to watch as waterski pro shop had all the top lines and was the dealer to go to for many many years and imo it went to their heads, they became complacent aholes and now they are about out of business after something like 25+ years. idaho watersports made their name on skiers choice and whitewater jets. once they snagged 'bu(and nautique for a few seasons but don't know if they ever ordered a stock boat), they shuttered skiers which is interesting. tyrell at prestige started out with tige, sanger and some I/O. sanger was never a big seller and now he has skiers and tige. will be interesting to see how they sell side by side and if he is still selling both brands 3 years from now. and dennis dillon, one of the largest car/rv dealers decides to sell ski boats so they buy up every other brand remaining. you know they don't have a guy running the business when they picked up gekko and ordered several models to sell. bet they are still sitting on the original orders... most of this has transpired in the last 6 to 7 years.

[freeheel4life]

Lol, sandm is right on as well. Don't forget "boise Mastercraft " which is really UT MC. Think they are moving some NXT from what I see on the lake. Haven't seen many new Xseries on the water tho. IWS definitely has nautique in inventory. There are certainly those with G money to spend in the valley and in my experience those types are more concerned about bragging rights than actual performance, and will buy nautique simply for the name and being able to tell their friends how much they spent on their boat. Don't get me wrong, Nautiques are great, but it's not like a unicorn pops out of it every time you launch it off the trailer. Solid boats that are well engineered with a name to stand behind it. Worth and spending g23 $?? Not when there's an rzx3, new supra SR(also think it's going to surprise some people), and the moomba max for less IMO, but I'm a poor tech as well. We service an enzo that our customer bought from those guys that sell the rvs, sleds, and Fineline/gekko (amazingly have seen st least one that sold on the lake and think they may have sold a second). He will always beat the centurion drum but still services with us exclusively, also have a couple Supreme owners that feel the same. If we are servicing boats that were sold at other dealers and retaining those guys then Tyrell must be on to something. Great guy to work for.
Side note, Sanger got dropped before I started working here, but from what I gather it was from lack of dealer support from them, and from what we are hearing from guys that bought sangers from the dealer up North it's a lot of the same. Not getting much help from yhere original dealer or sanger after the sale. Just what I can deduce from talking to the three guys that we have been helping out that bought new Sangers.

[Thegerman618]

Techs are the guys you want to talk to anyway. They are the real feelers of how customer appreciate or love/hate their boats. Its nothing against the floor guys but after the sale, they are done till the customer returns to buy again. The techs are the guys seeing these boats for maint./Repairs/upgrades long after the first sale, and sadly the guys that get abused for every problem with the boat. When you see the same guy with the same boat walk in over and over and keeps missing weekends because his boat is constantly down. Top that off with whatever brand company saying no coverage and all of the sudden your customer goes from disappointed their boat broke, to ballistic pissed because they have no dealer/brand support regardless if the dealer is in the right. Many will walk right back to the showroom and say show me anything but "X" brand.

FREEHEEL4LIFE- You nailed it as well, and honestly how the dealer got me to upgrade as well. I had a perfect boat 06 24ve that was dialed in, but one trade offer and a great bottom line on a newer boat I couldn't pass it up. All of the sudden the dealer wins three times over, they sell a newer boat...WIN. They take in a perfect first/second boat for someone looking to get into the brand or isn't ready to go all in on something new...WIN. That turns into a potential new boat buyer in a few years....WIN.

We could go all kinds of places with this thread, I am not so familiar with manufacture quotas or how that is even determined though I could probably speculate. Either way Tige Boats in General are pushing forward in their technology, surf capability, quality, etc. with that is pushing them into the same price point as their competition. Tige is on the rise in a big way with price increases reaching almost 10% price increase year to year and new models being released and older lines cut from the line each year with new top price points for "Flagship" boats. Consider (roughly) 10% increases across the Tige line, when your competition is only increasing 6-8% across an entire line. If I were a dealer owner, I am looking a Tige thinking "how far will you go?" I sold 30 boats last year because your brand new boat was $120K now 18's are out and they $135K and you quota me to sell 35 boats, but you priced your boat out of my local area market value and cant meet quota. Then I am sure Tige is on the phone saying "Why cant you sell boats". It may be a vicious circle, I don't work for dealer or even pretend to understand what is going on in them. However, I keep my ear to the ground and ask questions when I can to gain insight into the inner workings of dealers. Either way is a gamble, Carry 1 brand and 1 brand only and push that brand hard because you believe its the best brand for your area, or cover your bases and offer multiple brands and multiple entry levels to cover any kind of potential buyer that walks in the door, however showroom floor space is expensive and carrying 3 lines of boats isn't cheaper either and overhead costs eat into your savings as a buyer.

Rant over.

[under-ground-king]

MB sport boats is named after Mike Brendella. Next generation/evolution of Ski Brendella ski boats.

The German nailed it. Let me preface by saying I'm a tech, not in sales. Just my observation. But when you stack an Rseries that you have to order without a 400 (detuned 360), non power tower, rev 8s, and some other options to keep them low on price, and then put a bigger boat, rev 10s, bigger motor right next to it at the same price, welll...
Does a Craz hold a candle to a Z or RZ series boat though, not a chance. Put a Z3 up against a Supra SA though and you've got a shootout, just ask dakota4ce about it, bet I know what he says.
People like what they like. Just had a guy trade in his one year old r21 for an r23e because he wanted more room. Didn't even look at a moomba or supra. Have guys trading in 2 year old z3s on new custom Tiges for this year. These trades also get new customers that can't quite afford a new Tige into a nice boat and hooked on Tige as a brand. Tige builds a great boat and has a phenomenal base. Doesn't mean people can't have options from the same dealer.

Out of curiosity, are the guys you mentioned that are trading in their two year old Z3s getting current model Z3s or moving up to the RXZ(2 or 3) flagship lineup?

[Thegerman618]

My bet would be depending on how old the Z3's are. A guy trading in a 15 and older Z3 (Non-Taps 3) is probably looking to upgrade into something with Taps 3 and those with the financial ability will go RZX model others stay Z3. I would have loved to go RZX3 but could sign the woman off on the pickle fork she wouldn't have it.

[bsreid]

Breakwater marine is going to be on its last year for us Vancouver peeps. Personally I’d like seca to expand but that’s unlikely. It really takes a certain dealer and some of them don’t really have it set.

[007]

I'm sure all boat dealers are under a lot of pressure to move units and that gets harder as the price point moves up.

Would love an RZX2/3, but after trade I am a REALLY nice tow vehicle difference in price. That's a lot to swallow when you are still pretty happy with your boat. Even jumping to a new Z3 is a little bit of a leap for 15 Z3 owners. The R series is a smart move for Tige and a tolerable priced upgrade for many. But alas, I'm a sucker for good marketing and the flagship of what ever I am into at the time!

[under-ground-king]

My bet would be depending on how old the Z3's are. A guy trading in a 15 and older Z3 (Non-Taps 3) is probably looking to upgrade into something with Taps 3 and those with the financial ability will go RZX model others stay Z3. I would have loved to go RZX3 but could sign the woman off on the pickle fork she wouldn't have it.

I completely forgot about the introduction of the TAPs 3 in 2016. Light bulb moment.

[rcoates2]

Techs are the guys you want to talk to anyway. They are the real feelers of how customer appreciate or love/hate their boats. Its nothing against the floor guys but after the sale, they are done till the customer returns to buy again. The techs are the guys seeing these boats for maint./Repairs/upgrades long after the first sale, and sadly the guys that get abused for every problem with the boat. When you see the same guy with the same boat walk in over and over and keeps missing weekends because his boat is constantly down. Top that off with whatever brand company saying no coverage and all of the sudden your customer goes from disappointed their boat broke, to ballistic pissed because they have no dealer/brand support regardless if the dealer is in the right. Many will walk right back to the showroom and say show me anything but "X" brand.

FREEHEEL4LIFE- You nailed it as well, and honestly how the dealer got me to upgrade as well. I had a perfect boat 06 24ve that was dialed in, but one trade offer and a great bottom line on a newer boat I couldn't pass it up. All of the sudden the dealer wins three times over, they sell a newer boat...WIN. They take in a perfect first/second boat for someone looking to get into the brand or isn't ready to go all in on something new...WIN. That turns into a potential new boat buyer in a few years....WIN.

We could go all kinds of places with this thread, I am not so familiar with manufacture quotas or how that is even determined though I could probably speculate. Either way Tige Boats in General are pushing forward in their technology, surf capability, quality, etc. with that is pushing them into the same price point as their competition. Tige is on the rise in a big way with price increases reaching almost 10% price increase year to year and new models being released and older lines cut from the line each year with new top price points for "Flagship" boats. Consider (roughly) 10% increases across the Tige line, when your competition is only increasing 6-8% across an entire line. If I were a dealer owner, I am looking a Tige thinking "how far will you go?" I sold 30 boats last year because your brand new boat was $120K now 18's are out and they $135K and you quota me to sell 35 boats, but you priced your boat out of my local area market value and cant meet quota. Then I am sure Tige is on the phone saying "Why cant you sell boats". It may be a vicious circle, I don't work for dealer or even pretend to understand what is going on in them. However, I keep my ear to the ground and ask questions when I can to gain insight into the inner workings of dealers. Either way is a gamble, Carry 1 brand and 1 brand only and push that brand hard because you believe its the best brand for your area, or cover your bases and offer multiple brands and multiple entry levels to cover any kind of potential buyer that walks in the door, however showroom floor space is expensive and carrying 3 lines of boats isn't cheaper either and overhead costs eat into your savings as a buyer.

Rant over.

My first Tige 92 open bow was $22000 out the door. A same year Honda Accord EX was around $20000. Compare them now, Big difference. Salaries sure haven't increased anywhere near that much. I realize the boat has changed a lot but something's outta wack.

[CarFanatic]

Yea it's boat prices lol

[IDBoating]

My first Tige 92 open bow was $22000 out the door. A same year Honda Accord EX was around $20000. Compare them now, Big difference. Salaries sure haven't increased anywhere near that much. I realize the boat has changed a lot but something's outta wack.

It's been said many times, and it's still true: Production volume.

Material and labor costs increase with time. Some of that is inflation, some of it is improved (and usually more expensive) technology. Automobile manufacturers build things by the millions of units, and knowing that they can make investments in tooling, robotics and other automation, etc. The front-end costs are high but they know they will amortize them across MILLIONS of units so the savings can be significant.

Now consider the wakeboat industry. Total volume shipped, ALL new wakeboats from ALL manufacturers, will probably be about 11K-12K units worldwide this model year. That's not many. For comparison, Ferrari - a brand most would consider "exclusive" and "specialized" and are not surprised at their high price tags - ships 10K new cars per year. When you buy a new wakeboat you're buying something as rare as a new Ferrari. You'll note the price tags aren't all that far off, either!

Then consider that most boat manufacturers build less than 2000 new boats per year. (Malibu and possibly MC are the exceptions at the moment.) So now you're talking about "volume" that is 1/5th that of Ferrari for each manufacturer. And they each have their own factory, their own staffs, etc. It's really, REALLY hard to drive down production costs when you're only building 2000 of something per year.

One manufacturer told us that a molds for a new boat model were a quarter of a million dollars. Let's say that model stays in production for five years at 500 units per year. That's a total of 2500 units. The amortized mold cost is $1000 PER BOAT, and that's before the material to actually make that boat!

Look up some YouTube videos of an automobile manufacturing plant. They're filled with automated metal shapers forming panels quickly and perfectly with no human hands, robotic welders attaching pieces to frames, and they're shipping hundreds of units a DAY. Now ask someone who has toured a wakeboat plant... they put fiberglass sheets into a mold with teams of people using paint rollers on sticks! (I am not kidding.) And on a good day they ship 4-5 boats. There's simply no comparison.

The semiconductor industry faced a similar problem back in the early 80's. As the design rules got smaller the costs of a new fabrication plant were skyrocketing; each new fab was a cool billion dollars. Lots of really good ideas from really good Engineers just wouldn't get built because they didn't have a spare billion lying around to duplicate the next guy's fab line. So the idea was hatched to create a subindustry of "fab lines for hire". Companies built fab lines with no intention of using them for their own designs... instead, small design shops would essentially rent the fab lines to crank out production runs of their parts. Today the line is building parts for Cirrus Logic, tomorrow it's building parts for Siliconix, etc.

Since then the concept has been expanded until you now have places like Foxconn in China, running huge assembly lines that build everything from Cisco routers to Apple iPhones. The "brand names" don't have to invest in nor maintain a factory or staff so all of the infrastructure duplication is eliminated, and the factories themselves stay busy and their people employed because even if one company is struggling there are others to fill the schedule. It's an interesting idea... could the wakeboat industry do something similar? Could they get past the trust issues of mingling their products with those of other brands? I have no idea. But this might be one way to bring automation, robotics, and other massive cost savings to the industry. They'd still have the up-front investments in molds and so forth, but the per-piece cost of goods sold (COGS) could be driven down dramatically. Of course, this would require the brands to commit to minimum production runs and then stock the resulting finished boats until shipment and sale, and you'd likely lose the ability to pick your preferred color scheme. Hard to have "high volume" and "full custom" at the same time.

Bottom line: With each wakeboat brand you're buying something rarer than a new Ferrari. It has a price tag to match.

[rcoates2]

It's been said many times, and it's still true: Production volume.

Material and labor costs increase with time. Some of that is inflation, some of it is improved (and usually more expensive) technology. Automobile manufacturers build things by the millions of units, and knowing that they can make investments in tooling, robotics and other automation, etc. The front-end costs are high but they know they will amortize them across MILLIONS of units so the savings can be significant.

Now consider the wakeboat industry. Total volume shipped, ALL new wakeboats from ALL manufacturers, will probably be about 11K-12K units worldwide this model year. That's not many. For comparison, Ferrari - a brand most would consider "exclusive" and "specialized" and are not surprised at their high price tags - ships 10K new cars per year. When you buy a new wakeboat you're buying something as rare as a new Ferrari. You'll note the price tags aren't all that far off, either!

Then consider that most boat manufacturers build less than 2000 new boats per year. (Malibu and possibly MC are the exceptions at the moment.) So now you're talking about "volume" that is 1/5th that of Ferrari for each manufacturer. And they each have their own factory, their own staffs, etc. It's really, REALLY hard to drive down production costs when you're only building 2000 of something per year.

One manufacturer told us that a molds for a new boat model were a quarter of a million dollars. Let's say that model stays in production for five years at 500 units per year. That's a total of 2500 units. The amortized mold cost is $1000 PER BOAT, and that's before the material to actually make that boat!

Look up some YouTube videos of an automobile manufacturing plant. They're filled with automated metal shapers forming panels quickly and perfectly with no human hands, robotic welders attaching pieces to frames, and they're shipping hundreds of units a DAY. Now ask someone who has toured a wakeboat plant... they put fiberglass sheets into a mold with teams of people using paint rollers on sticks! (I am not kidding.) And on a good day they ship 4-5 boats. There's simply no comparison.

The semiconductor industry faced a similar problem back in the early 80's. As the design rules got smaller the costs of a new fabrication plant were skyrocketing; each new fab was a cool billion dollars. Lots of really good ideas from really good Engineers just wouldn't get built because they didn't have a spare billion lying around to duplicate the next guy's fab line. So the idea was hatched to create a subindustry of "fab lines for hire". Companies built fab lines with no intention of using them for their own designs... instead, small design shops would essentially rent the fab lines to crank out production runs of their parts. Today the line is building parts for Cirrus Logic, tomorrow it's building parts for Siliconix, etc.

Since then the concept has been expanded until you now have places like Foxconn in China, running huge assembly lines that build everything from Cisco routers to Apple iPhones. The "brand names" don't have to invest in nor maintain a factory or staff so all of the infrastructure duplication is eliminated, and the factories themselves stay busy and their people employed because even if one company is struggling there are others to fill the schedule. It's an interesting idea... could the wakeboat industry do something similar? Could they get past the trust issues of mingling their products with those of other brands? I have no idea. But this might be one way to bring automation, robotics, and other massive cost savings to the industry. They'd still have the up-front investments in molds and so forth, but the per-piece cost of goods sold (COGS) could be driven down dramatically. Of course, this would require the brands to commit to minimum production runs and then stock the resulting finished boats until shipment and sale, and you'd likely lose the ability to pick your preferred color scheme. Hard to have "high volume" and "full custom" at the same time.

Bottom line: With each wakeboat brand you're buying something rarer than a new Ferrari. It has a price tag to match.

Very familiar with all that info. The boat I purchased before the Tige was a Eliminator Boat and spent many many days at factory watching many different models being produced so familiar with what's involved with production. They produce far less volume. Maybe Tige produced more volume back then so price could be lower? Or maybe they decided to sell less volume at higher prices and get the same bottom line? Don't know. All ski boats have climbed in price extensively of last several years and have priced many regular folks out of the market. That wasn't the case back then.

[IDBoating]

There's one more aspect to consider. Look at the increased interest in "value" brands. Malibu costs a fortune, but their Axis brand is built on the same production line. Supra is a top-line label, but their Moomba brand is built on the same line. MC is trying something similar with their NXT.

The really expensive components of those boats - the drivetrain, the hulls, etc. - are basically the same. Same engine manufacturers in the "premium" and "value" lines, usually the same engine models too. At the factory they don't have one stockroom full of "Malibu fiberglass and resin" with a separate stockroom for Axis... it's all the same stuff, assembled by the same people, standing in the same places on the production floor.

I think two things are at work here. First is the "bling" factor. The value brands have less billet aluminum, more plastic instead of chrome, maybe slightly less fancy upholstery, etc. The helm electronics might be slightly less extensive or glitzy (though Skier's Choice puts AutoWake on everything, so the only difference is the user interface) but lots of people here say they worry about touchscreens failing and over-reliance on black boxes vs. analog gauges and rocker switches so maybe that evens out. Some people want, and are willing to pay for, the bragging rights that come with all that bling. Other people recognize that if the hull shape is more or less the same, and the drivetrain is the same, and the ballast/surf system is the same, everything else is just glitz and money and maybe they don't need those things. You can always upgrade the stereo later - or not. You can always add transom lights later - or not. But you can shave 40-50% of the boat's cost if you can live without billet aluminum, a powered tower, and so forth. You can get a brand new nicely outfitted Moomba or Axis (maybe an R-series Tige too) in the $70K range. Granted that's still more than today's Honda Accord, but it's not nearly as much of an increase as a comparison of 90's prices to today's MC's, Supras, and Malibus. And guess what - those value boats are outfitted a lot like the boats from the 90's, emphasizing the basics without all the glitz and glitter. So perhaps that's a more accurate comparison.

Second, I suspect the manufacturers just accept the fact that they won't be making as much profit on their value brands. You buy an MC (instead of NXT), Malibu (instead of Axis), or Supra (instead of Moomba) and you can safely presume the manufacturer is getting a better margin than if you went for a down-line model. As with cars, it doesn't necessarily COST twice as much to build a car that SELLS for twice as much but they know that some people will pay it anyway.

So maybe a more accurate way to look at the wakeboat market is to compare yesteryear's models to today's value models. Then, a more recent development is the hugely upscale models that are all decked out with the latest in gadgetry, bling, and flashy showmanship. You can still get a value model for an inflation-adjusted price that isn't far off yesteryear's prices and will be outfitted more like those 90's boats... or you can choose to buy the equivalent of a McMansion now that those are also available. The question is whether the value brands have the things you actually NEED. Engine? Every model. Surf-optimized hull? Check. Stereo? All of them. AutoWake (at SC)? Everywhere. What more do you really need, and how much are you willing to pay for it?

[Thegerman618]

Technology coupled with specialized manual labor has certainly drove the costs up as far as what is actually put into the boat. However, we as "customers" are also guilty in this aspect because we are constantly evolving from sport to sport and the boat engineers are drastically playing catch-up. Look at the early 90's, Slalom ran the industry. Sure Wakeboarding was around but was no where near evolved to what we see today. The boats were mostly direct drive, 19-21', relatively low freeboards and specialized hulls for leaving minimal wakes. Then fast forward 10 years, all of the sudden we are seeing gravity games, X-games, and worldwide wakeboard competitions. At this point Boat Engineers for 10 years have been mastering how to make a hull make no weight, to making hull that makes a clean big wake at 60 feet. We start to see introduction of ballast, V-drives, Electronic Cruise Controls, Deeper Freeboards, and "BLING". Now here we are the better part of 2 decades later, and we want WAVES, touchscreens, automation, push button changes, rider profiles, crazy freeboards, huge supercharged motors, new transmissions, Surf specific systems, and on and on. All the while the engineers are staring at a CAD drawing of 21' foot ski boat from 1995 and a 2018 Centurion Ri257 (Cruise Ship) scratching their head saying what's next. I would venture to say that the amount of fiberglass in a Ri257 vs. 1995 MC ProStar 190 is Triple at least, and the amount of engineering time, technology, trial and error these manufactures go through is well North of $1M (including the cost of a mold and the changes to the mold after R&D).

With the cost of certain brands and models surpassing the $250K mark and most Mid-level boats North of $100K on top of the fact they are getting longer and more freeboard the cost of these boats will eventually hit a point where only the top 10% can afford a Top-Shelf Tow boat. Its unfortunate, I am 31 years old and don't see myself being able to afford a new boat in 5-10 years.