My Sacs are Bulging

[ragboy]

So, many of you guys have been asking about our ballast in our boat. Its fairly simple, and I did a How To Wakesurf 101 video on it, take a look:



So basically, 2 enzo sacs from fly high and 2 jabsco pumps, each with their own inlet from the bottom. Empty back out the bottom.

There are several issues we are working out.

• The sacs shift a lot
• The sacs bulge way over size
• due to bulging, its destroying our boat
• tough to tell when empty, melt impeller

Those are the main issues. We are working on solutions for all of these things. And eventually plan on having a kit, and perform local installations in our bays. About bulge. Stuffing them in under the side seats, because you can't have a 3rd rectangle cut in the shape, is def an issue over time. I have put about 70 hours of CONSTANT use on this system, and cup holders are starting to pop out, firewalls in back knocked out, which isn't so big a deal, and fiberglass is being stressed. So I pulled all the sacs out, and put on the ground in the LAB and filled them up.



This one looks like one sac (drivers) is much smaller, but its an illusion, only about 16 inches shorter.







These things bulge on the sides, as much as 5 inches out on each side, making the bag 10 inches wider than measurements. Bulge factor is huge, and its a lot of pressure.



Here is a great picture of the bulge, this thing bulges up, about 6 inches taller than ordered dimension.







Here is the front area where they are stuffed in. You can see how they will put a lot of pressure in here, not designed for it. And when we fill up, which we need to fill all the way up to get the wake we do, the seat bulges up. And when you let off throttle, the water rolls up the side of the boat, and pushes you up out of your seat.



We have methods for dealing with all of this, I would say we won't be done until the end of the season. Ready for off season upgrades.

Hope that helps.

[Carter13]

Nice pics and write up.
I was thinking about going the custom sac route and now am glad I just went with the 750's.

[ragboy]

As wakesurfing becomes more mainstream, and I think this is the year we will look back and say it crossed over IMHO, boats will start being made with surf ballasts that work for that boat, at least I hope so. For now, we have to work out how to get this done, but in a way it works for the recreational user. I don't think the system I have is ready for that yet. I mean, guys, you know what it is like when you drop coin and your special lady is bitchin at you when it doesn't work out right. My wife LOVES our boat, and she gets ticked when she sees that cup holder poppin out, or the fiberglass stretchin. I don't blame them/her. So we gotta get it right, so that we can have a system that just works, and of course its going to put some extra stress on your boat, but within reason.

The empty issue is interesting, we have routed our system 2 ways, to empty out the side, and out the bottom. Out the bottom is the LEAST trouble free and efficient with these pumps, and don't think you will always notice when it emptys when you go out the side. Of course it is easier to notice. You get those tunes going, and everyone laughing in your boat, and you miss it. So the Jabsco's have protection for that, which I thought was electronic. I thought they shut off if you run them dry for too long, but they don't seem to. I purposely left it on empty 2 times, after it was done, and just let run. 1st, they get HOT, REAL HOT. Then you hear them kinda just go quiet, after about 10 mins or so. But they seem to be still running. At this point, you can turn off and cool, and they WILL NOT pump, and sound quiet. The impellers have a D'd opening that fits on the pump shaft. This D'd material, is designed to melt, and it does. So it melts, and then the pump just turns freely and easy, with no pressure. Of course you then have to spend $25 to get a new impeller, but they are super easy to replace. So you def want to keep a couple of those lying around. We are working on a electronic method to shut down the pumps when they are running dry.

[Duncan]

I do not have nearly the hours of surfing on the boat as Ragboy (48 hours this season, most surfing). But we are noticing a lot of the same. Cup holders pop up (worried about someone catching a foot or toe on the thin top flange). Internal locker firewall bulging. Already thinking of methods for reinforcement. I have not noticed fiberglass effects but now I will have too look

I am happy with manual filling btw. I have two bags and two pumps. With a few more quick connects, I can run two pumps on the same bag but have not yet. Of course the same bags can be plumbed later.

[dogbert]

It would seem to me that you could make the ballast bags with a double-wall w/ some sort of reinforcement in them that would still allow them to collapse, albeit not like they do now.

I have the bulging issue up front with my bow sac. I solved the problem by taking 2 plastic drink cups and putting them underneath the fiberglass and then reseated the cup holders back in the holes. Works like a champ. The best part was that these were free cups I got at Rudy's BBQ. I have a lot of these cups, so when they break (they last about 1 season), I just throw some new ones in there. This year I had to modify the design a little bit by drilling holes in the bottom after my boat got caught in a rain storm and the cup filled up with water...LOL.

[turbonine]

Ragboy,

Have you addressed or noticed any affects on the engine with a boat that is mostly used for surfing? I remember some discussions a while back about the constant use of the engine at a tilt, but I don't think there was any conclusion.

Do you think a larger displacement engine is needed for surfing or just a re-prop?

[ragboy]

The reprop is all that I think is needed. I have the 340HP 5.7. Other than a slight (I think harmonic) vibration at 12-1400 rpm, I haven't had a day of trouble. I service it on schedule and run it constantly. My kids have so much stamina. RJ can surf, and even wakeboard when we were doing that, for like an hour if I let him. He doesn't seem to get tired. We get on the lake around 4 -4:30pm, and we come off when it is getting dark around 8:30. Aside from maybe 20 minutes of swimming while we switch sides from regular to goofy, its ALL surfing. It runs level as we idle in and out of the no wake. Otherwise it is in gangster lean mode. I think I have almost 370 hrs on it now. I will end around 475-500 this season if all goes as planned.

Maybe a 6.0 would be better, but I have never felt the need, and the reprop made a huge difference. Plus, my 5.7 is so great on gas wakesurfing. I have to measure it, but I can't be burning more than 3-4 gallons per hour. Def not over 4 gph.

[Booms]

I installed 2 custom bags in our RZ2. Maybe I am alittle anal but I watch everything like a hawk. I know when the sacs are full, and even amongst all the fun in the boat, I watch the side discharge constantly during the empty and filling process.

Ragboy - are your sacs vented? I am not saying it is the solution but I vented the sacs out the side of my boat. As soon as the sac is under pressure the water pours out the side of the boat.

IMO the stretch of the bags is what gives them strength. With out the stretch the bag would not be able to withstand any pokes or any sharp objects. The more stretch the more resistant to any sharp objects.

[ragboy]

yes, the sacs are vented. However, if I just have a vent straight out my sac can empty to almost half its level in about 10-20 minutes through the vent. So we put a check valve on the vent, so it takes some pressure to vent. So it fills up and starts to vent out side, but the check valve keeps it from leaking as we surf. There is an easy solution, don't fill them up as much, but then you also have a ton of water sloshing back and forth, and you lose your wake.

[Greg Mallek]

Hey Rag; Long time I have the ame set up in my 24V. Custom Enzo's on both sides, with 2 Mayfair pumps on each sack for filling, and one on each for emptying, and a sepaerate vent line to each. I put ball valves on each line to prevent the self draining that you talked about. What I did was I added #220 of plate under the back side of each bag, and then only fill the bags to "Firm" capacity. This eliminated the buldging, and limited the water washing as well. The plates made the wake as though the sacks were plump full.
With this set up, I'm super happy with my wave, and seems to be trouble free.

[chpthril]

yes, the sacs are vented. However, if I just have a vent straight out my sac can empty to almost half its level in about 10-20 minutes through the vent. So we put a check valve on the vent, so it takes some pressure to vent. So it fills up and starts to vent out side, but the check valve keeps it from leaking as we surf. There is an easy solution, don't fill them up as much, but then you also have a ton of water sloshing back and forth, and you lose your wake.

Now that you are going to be my competition, I shouldn't help but I'd like to offer up a couple things I've learned over the past years to a fellow Tige owner. In a couple a past ballast threads, I've felt that you didn't want my input, if so, no prob, I'll just shut up

[ragboy]

Hey Rag; Long time I have the ame set up in my 24V. Custom Enzo's on both sides, with 2 Mayfair pumps on each sack for filling, and one on each for emptying, and a sepaerate vent line to each. I put ball valves on each line to prevent the self draining that you talked about. What I did was I added #220 of plate under the back side of each bag, and then only fill the bags to "Firm" capacity. This eliminated the buldging, and limited the water washing as well. The plates made the wake as though the sacks were plump full.
With this set up, I'm super happy with my wave, and seems to be trouble free.

Thanks, the plate is one of the things we are working through, Are you using steel?

Now that you are going to be my competition, I shouldn't help but I'd like to offer up a couple things I've learned over the past years to a fellow Tige owner. In a couple a past ballast threads, I've felt that you didn't want my input, if so, no prob, I'll just shut up

Well, then, we may just have to find a way to work together on this then, and not compete. You can reach me privately anytime through the site. I am not greedy. And one area that most can't compete with me is with software, web presence. So if you have something to contribute, lets work together on something. Would love to.

I think at the time, It just wasn't at my forefront, because the deck was. Now that I have hurdled the deck issue, it is at the forefront for me. So sorry if I made you feel like you input was not more than welcome. Understand, I am just having a good time. I can't help but be thorough, I get off on automation and simplicity. The system I have, makes a great wake. I am happy with it. But my challenge is to make it install and forget.

[ragboy]

Hey Rag; Long time I have the ame set up in my 24V. Custom Enzo's on both sides, with 2 Mayfair pumps on each sack for filling, and one on each for emptying, and a sepaerate vent line to each. I put ball valves on each line to prevent the self draining that you talked about. What I did was I added #220 of plate under the back side of each bag, and then only fill the bags to "Firm" capacity. This eliminated the buldging, and limited the water washing as well. The plates made the wake as though the sacks were plump full.
With this set up, I'm super happy with my wave, and seems to be trouble free.

Hey man, I just remembered. I thought you didn't do goofy. You cave? What's up with that? ;-)

[Greg Mallek]

No goofy for me Rag!! I'll never go to the "Dark Side" I'll leave that to Jeff. HaHa. Yea, Im using steel stacking plates that are used for elevator counter weights. They are #55 each. Each plate is approx. 1 1/2" thick, X 8" X 10". I sprayed them with a Rustolium type of paint, and placed them on a quickdry mat. The Sac just rolls over the top of the plates, and it's all good.

[chpthril]

Cool, I'm always willing to offer ideas and suggestions. I've helped plenty of guys with ballasts and stereos, even though they've gone elsewhere to buy their stuff. I do it cause I enjoy it. It can also be a learning experience as well, Tossing an idea out there lets others see it from a different angle and they may see something I dint.

So, lets take a look here. Sacs are vented through a check-valve, right, what kind of check-valves, PVC or brass? If brass, I feel they need too much pressure to open. If PVC, are they swing-door or plunger? I found first hand that the PVC plungers will not work. They only require 2psi to unseat the plunger, but that's enough to allow the sac to bulge. A c/v is not really needed in the vent line for venting, and really wont help stop unwanted venting (draining of sac while cruising), but more on that later. The c/v, IMO, is best served in the vent line to stop venting when the sac is draining. This causing the sac to draw a slight vacuum and thus collapse on itself and allow the pump to suck out most of the water. With out a c/v in the vent line, the sac will get down to a point and then air coming in the event line reaches the drain fitting and draining stops.

So, the key to stopping the sac from building pressure, is to use a free-flowing check-valve that will allow the sac to purge air, and then water, as it fills, without requiring pressure to open the c/v. Xpjim gets credit for this, but I had already purchased my plunger-type c/v's, so I used them and had the same issue you have now, bulging sacs.

As noted, a c/v in the vent really wont stop unwanted venting, it can be done with out a manual ball-valve. It may take some extra hose, but the key is to get the vent hose to loop higher then the sac at some point between the sac and thru-hull. If you can get the hose to make a loop up into the gunwale, so it's higher then the sac, it wont self drain. If you cant run the hose in this way, there is a thing out there made for this application. It's an arched rubber hose asm that breaks the siphon and stops this. It's used by some on the fill lines of an aerator system to stop unwanted draining out the fill pump.

For the melted impeller and draining issue, the single best solution, IMO, seems to be to T off the fill line at the pump and divert the drain water out the vent thru-hulls. Yes this adds a little bit more plumbing and may slow the flow down a little with the added c/v's, but looking at the alternative, wasted impellers. It keeps it simple yet functional. I think the more complicated the system is, the less reliable it becomes......KISS.