Ballast Fill Level Monitoring

[oldwakedoc]

I want to design a system to measure the fill level of my ballasts bags in my system. I installed the system in my 2000 21V with the supply help from chpthril . This season I have researched options of designing a monitoring system for my ballasts. I have seen 2 possible options and was wondering if anyone has solved this problem or has suggestions. Timers won't work for changing a fill setup except for possibly the initial one, starting from empty.

One option I have come up with is using a flow sensor and just monitor the water in or out using Arduino or Ras.Pi system to display and follow. The other that I have found uses a pressure sensor placing on the bottom of the sac, and calibrate the pressure of the full ballast to an empty one, then using Arduino to display and monitor. Hard tanks would make it much easier, but I have what I have.

All input welcome. I will keep an update on where I go form here.

[freeheel4life]

https://www.wakegarage.com/projects-...nitoring-r193/

Im assuming from the second option you mentioned you are following this thread^^ If not its right along with what you are talking about. I just fill until vent and then if I want to drop weight I drain until I get the desired wake effect. Poor guys monitor.

[oldwakedoc]

I am completely in you your camp. Works but setup time and have kids that want to be on the wave or across the wake ASAP. It would be so peaceful just to get to that point faster. Plus, I enjoy figuring out the problem.

Yes I have followed that link and should have included it in my post. There are some great projects on that site.

[UNSTUCK]

Go check out the new supras/moombas. I think they are the first have a good monitoring system in place. I was reading a bit about it on their forum but don’t recall the details. I think it is some sort of tube that fills up as the bag fills and then there is a sensor in that tube. That way you don’t have to “weigh” the whole bag, just the tube.

[oldwakedoc]

Thanks, will take a look at that.

[freeheel4life]

Its basically just like the draft sensor as far as I can tell. It doesnt give any feedback as to actual bag fill level, it just detects when bag is 100% full. Or at least that's how it was explained to me by Roger the tech support guy at SC. Sensor is on the vent line so when water makes it to it, bag is 100% full.

[oldwakedoc]

The Problem with the transducer idea is the cost of submersible monitors. I found some a little cheaper buying from China but ???? how well they will work. I always have my eys and the open compartment to use. I will keep an update if I make some head way. Thanks for the input.

[IDBoating]

Its basically just like the draft sensor as far as I can tell. It doesnt give any feedback as to actual bag fill level, it just detects when bag is 100% full. Or at least that's how it was explained to me by Roger the tech support guy at SC. Sensor is on the vent line so when water makes it to it, bag is 100% full.

Since we manufacture the sensors in question, I'll chime in here.

Moomba/Supra use two of our sensors on their ballast systems. Our Ballast Sensor is the tube-style sensor that was mentioned, it gives a 0-100% reading in 1% increments and transmits that data over the CAN network. It can be delivered with any length tube to accommodate fat sacs or hard tanks of any size, can be recalibrated in the field if you add/remove/change ballast capacity, etc.

Our Hose Sensor is the one "on the vent line". It detects the presence/absence of water in the hose or tube around which it is clamped, and reports that over the CAN network. It can be used as a "full sensor" if you don't want true 0-100% measurements, or as a backup to our Ballast Sensor, or on engine cooling lines for safety, or on bilge pump exit hoses, or wherever else you want to know about water. Since someone mentioned Moomba/Supra, they use our Hose Sensors for those ballast compartments that don't have room for our Ballast Sensors, which generally means the front bag or tank where things are really tight. Take a look in the back of a newer Moomba, you'll see our Ballast Sensors standing tall and proud on both port and starboard.

Both our Ballast and our Hose Sensors are proven products that we've been shipping for 3+ years now. We're on our 3rd generation so the design is absolutely dialed in. We have thousands in the field and ship many hundreds more every month. They have zero moving parts, require zero maintenance, and make no electrical contact with the ballast fluid. They are certified by an independent testing lab to compliance with SAE J1171. Murphy, who makes everyone's helm electronics except Malibu's, already has their firmware working with them. We've also solved quite a few longer-term problems that most people don't even know exist....

As for the pressure-sensor approach, we've studied and prototyped that. It can be made to work, but it is far from a good solution. There are resolution and repeatability problems, cost challenges, it has to be in contact with the ballast fluid which raises seal/leak and SERIOUS contamination concerns, it's usually based on analog voltages or currents which are very susceptible to noise (which is why so many boat devices are going away from analog to CAN-based solutions), particularly when the wiring runs are long like they usually are for ballast devices, etc. We had a specific request for a pressure-based ballast sensor a while back and after doing the R&D and demonstrating the results, the customer said "No Way". For a one-off DIY garage project? Sure. For production? Not a chance.

You'll be seeing our Ballast Sensors on more brands soon. They completely eliminate all of the timer nightmares. No more guesswork... they tell you how much ballast you have with 1% resolution no matter what pump(s) you have, no matter the charge on the battery, no matter if the engine is running, no matter if the hull is moving or not. They cannot get "out of alignment" with repeated fill-empty cycles like timers do because they aren't guessing how much water based on time, they're actually measuring the water itself. Note this means they also detect leaks in your ballast system... if you leak water with a timer, the timer has no way to know that because it's not actually measuring water, it's just guessing based on pump time. Syphoning works the same way - a timer can't tell, but our Ballast Sensors know the water level dropped.

[IDBoating]

Here are two quick photos of the Ballast Sensor (first) and the Hose Sensor (second).
BallastSensor.jpg
HoseSensor.jpg

The Ballast Sensor connects to the bottom of the ballast compartment using the right-angle hose barb. The top straight hose barb can exit back to the top of the bag, or can serve as the bag's vent line. The electronics are housed in the module at the top of the sensor, which provides a standard 6-pin Deutsch style connector. Every part you see in the Ballast Sensor is custom made in one way or another based on 3+ years of experience cranking out thousands of these units.

The Hose Sensor simply clamps around any one inch tube or hose, and reports the presence or absence of water inside. The photo angle isn't great but you can see the round hose clamp section. It too provides a standard 6-pin Deutsch style connector (same pinout too, so harness manufacturers can standardize). Two of the pins are addressing pins that allow up to nine separate addresses, so you can have up to nine of these sensors in any combination on a single CAN network. The Hose Sensor can be retrofitted onto an existing boat, and it can be removed later too since it doesn't affect the hose or tubing at all (no holes, no adhesive, no nothing). You can just barely see the PCB with the connector in the little "box" on the side; the hose clamp and box are a one-piece custom molded polypro enclosure designed specifically for this application.

All of our sensors have patents issued and/or pending.

We take this stuff very seriously!

[oldwakedoc]

Tige Jedi do you sell these as an after market setup? It is a great design.
Question:
The vertical pipe has sensors along the length to measure the level as it rises? (the one registering 0-100% full)

My current status, I ordered the transducers to play with a new project. Will update with any success or failure.

[UNSTUCK]

Nice work, ID. Thanks for the explanation. With it all running off CAN, that means they won't work on the older boats. I'd love to have that system on my boat. Such a great idea.

[IDBoating]

Tige Jedi do you sell these as an after market setup? It is a great design.

Sadly, no. The only product we sell to end users is our upgraded Tige touchpad... at least for now.

Question: The vertical pipe has sensors along the length to measure the level as it rises? (the one registering 0-100% full)

Yes, there are aluminum electrodes running the length of the tube. As the level rises within the tube, the electrodes measure the characteristics of the entire water column and then decimate that into 1% increments. There aren't 100 separate little sensors, if that's what you mean... we measure continuously along the tube's length and then report that as a percentage.

My current status, I ordered the transducers to play with a new project. Will update with any success or failure.

I'll be watching with interest! Good luck and kudos for your efforts!

[IDBoating]

Nice work, ID. Thanks for the explanation. With it all running off CAN, that means they won't work on the older boats.

There's nothing preventing the addition of a CAN network to any boat, of any age. Heck, we use a little CAN network to do R&D and demos with these sensors... just a length of wire with connectors on it. It's totally possible to run wiring from a ballast display of some kind on the helm to various sensors around the boat. The rest of the (existing) boat doesn't know or care. That's sort of what oldwakedoc was suggesting as an "aftermarket setup". We don't do that now but if someone were to put together a system we'd be glad to work with them. We just don't have the time to do it ourselves.

I'd love to have that system on my boat. Such a great idea.

Call Tige and tell them that! We'd love to solve their ballast timer problems, we just haven't reached out to them yet. It would be awesome to help them make their boats even better!

[freeheel4life]

ID, Thanks for dropping the knowledge. Going to have to sit down and read it in detail tonight. Always great when I get more info on SC function and operation on the TO forum that I do from those guys (in all fairness bossman didnt send me to recert last year)

[UNSTUCK]

There's nothing preventing the addition of a CAN network to any boat, of any age.

True. But what the point of installing all of that if you wont sell us the sensors!