New Board - No! Really!

[Surfdad]

Yeah, Rant over

We rode that Surftech and it's a different feel. It would literally spit you out of the pocket if you got into the wash. Have you seen little kids or super light women on a smallerish board and they can be almost in that second trailing wake and catch back up to the boat? THAT's what that thing was like. Turning was a tad slow, but the ability to recover or sort of steer into the flats and come back liesurely was such a kick.

The one I was thinking of was around that thickness, I'm guessing 3/4" so not a bad thickness.

The Canadrds to the TW-1's fit in the same slot as the C-5's for your Walzer. Same base exactly. I think I already scavanged ours or I'd give you ours, the only thing I can think of is to call Futures direct and say - gee I busted BOTH my TW-1 canards can I get replacements for them, please? I know they've sold me single fins before. Otherwise, I think you're on the hook for the full set.

Towanza, Cal Marine Sports and also Foam EZ are retailers and they might be able to help you, I'm not sure. Foam EZ sells tons of their product, so they may have a hookup.

They are a different fin. Longer'ish, but not by much and deeper by about 1". They don't have as much rake either, so the feeling is very VERY pivot'y. There is also no cup on the inside, it's a flat inside foil. As I remember made the Walzer slightly faster, way more responsive rail to rail and the turns were very tight. Took more effort to get them to fail for a slide.

[NICKYPOO]

Rant over? It will change. It has to change. Either that or die.

That Surftech is not what I was expecting. I just can't see myself on something like that. Too thick, too round. It might ride amazing and I'm sure that might change my tune, I just don't like thick boards. I might however bump up to something slightly thicker if I had too in order to put some real fins on it. Say like 7/8" maybe 1". I have the 2 1/4" sharktooths on there now. Are the TW1 canards a completely different fin than the sharktooths? They look different. Where can I get just those?

[Surfdad]

It was online! This is Roush's Surftech version. This board is stupid thick, like 2 inches, but the one I was thinking of was a normal skimmer like 5/8" or 3/4" or maybe 1", I think they were FCS plugs. Shoot I'm no help at all!

[Surfdad]

There are arguments on both sides of that. One side is skimmers throw more tricks because there isn't the required pumping and so surfers can't compete. There was certainly evidence of that back in '07 I think? The podiums were filled with skim riders.

The flip is just as you say, the segregation is stifling.

For the most part in the surf style division there are 6 tricks, the runs are filled out with different wakeboard grabs. So if you reach down and grab the board between your feet with your left hand and then again with your right hand those are two scored variations. Literally the only thing different is left and right hand.

The formula is complicated, but it's possible to win an open surf class doing that one trick 22 times.

At the World's in the finals there were 6 riders, or maybe it was the semi's I can't remember now, but 6 riders going up and back. I counted the tricks and the wakeboard grabs and as I recall there were 130 some odd tricks performed and of those over 100 were wakeboard grabs.

The push now is that those wakeboard grabs need to score MORE. Really? 100 of 130 isn't enough saturation? I'm guessing the push is for 100% or to protect riders that only do that. That's the key call it the wakeboard grab division!

If that trick was really all that hard, you wouldn't see it perfomed 100's of times in a division. Certainly allowing it to score as well as it does eliminates variety or progression. When were wakeboard grabs first performed? Back when Scott Byerly rode for Jimmy Redmond

The INT league has an interesting scoring model, they wrestled with the one trick pony aspect and they place limits on the number of tricks you can do in a "type". So for sake of argument lets say that wakeboard grabs are a "type" you can only score on say 5 in your run. You can do more, but they don't contribute to your score in anyway at all beyond 5. That forces the rider to do something beyond that one type of trick if they wish to be competitive against riders that can do two types of tricks.

James has something like 26 tricks, but some of those he's not consistent with. Some are hugely technical, that air 180 to backside switch revert 540 is so cool. BUT it's hugely risky and hard, plus it's really got no height, so in the current scoring model it scores about the same as a wakeboard grab because of the subjective components.

Why risk falling on a super techy trick when you can just make it 101 wakeboard grabs and score pretty much the same?

I dunno, I would think folks would look at the runs and say hey did you notice it's mostly wakeboard grabs? Think we should do something to limit that? Instead the response seems to be - hey there were 30 NON wakeboard grabs, we need to get rid of those!

Back to Eric, he is a wild man! He's got this split fin thruster that makes it a quad. I think I may have a picture of that quad skimmer dealio, I'll look and try and post.

Yeah we've had the discussion before, I don't think there's much to be done about it. There probably won't be much change for a few years until or if folks say - ummm, gee 327 wakeboard grabs in a division? Isn't there anything else? AND I know that sounds like a ridiculous number, but it's probably accurate...and can you imagine what the snore-o-meter gets pegged at by number 212?

Thanks for the dialog Nick!

[NICKYPOO]

See the whole segregation thing still bugs me. This is one reason I've kept with the skimmer. The surf division was bound for aerial hell from the get go. While definitely the most dramatic looking thing you can do on a surf wake is catch air, the surf style board and the surf division is evolving in to a one trick pony. This new board is evidence of that.

The skimmers seem to be stuck in a similar situation because of the segregation. There's no need to try and compete against a surf style board so why make one to try? Segregation is stifling the integration of hybrid boards. Eric Rouch has it right. He is ahead of his time. I'd love to see his board. I'd love to have one. Sounds like a blast.

What are you guys gonna do when a guy comes in to the surf division with a skimmer and smokes everybody and the goes out and wins the skim division with the same board? I bet segregation falls by the way side real quick.

Imagine the integration of the prize money. Now the winners are making a little coin. I know, I know the points. I don't know how to fix that. I think getting everybody on board for the idea of a unified class would at least get the brain juice flowing of all those involved.

It seems like we've had this conversation before.

[Surfdad]

Personally, I don't mind aerials, but 80% is retarded. James loves doing aerails but if his entire run has to be aerials to score well, he gets bored...like you say, it's boring just talking about it!

The problem with the hybrid division is that it will be the poor step child. It'll get no attention or credibility from organizers and with prize money so slim already, the OTHER divisions will fight it also because it dilutes their winnings.

Anyway...

Eric Roush has a quad skimmer that he brought out behind our boat, it was a blast! The other thing that we did with the Walzer was use the Futures Twinzer canards - it's their TW-1 fin set. No cup on the inside foil, but about 1 inch longer. Improved drive tremendously. But the turning was spectacular, almost too much. I remember going over on rail and literally being thrown off

...and maybe therein lies the point. Your suggestion of diversity and experimentation. There are so many options and things left to explore, but we're thwarted because there are only two distinctions and THAT was a ridiculously hard fought battle.

[NICKYPOO]

Fortunately, Wakesurfing is still small and raising a little stink can generate a big smell. I can imagine this point system will last forever. I don't even go to comes and I'm bored with it. I think there is much more evolution to come but, you're right, its going to require getting away from the aerials. The surf/skim thing has got go. We need a hybrid. Think quad Walzer. Surf speed and skim release. It has to go that way. It will go that way mark my words.

...and then there is the wake.

[Surfdad]

No, no, no it's fine to ask Nick. My responses are tempered because this isn't a board that James likes riding, it's a board we shaped to cater to the biases in the judging and THAT alone.

I won't make any changes to loosen it up, the technical tricks that James does don't score as well and there is a faction trying to devalue those even more such that wakeboard grabs score even higher than they do now, relatively speaking.

The evolution of pro surf style wakesurfing will be wakeboard grabs and that's about all. One trick with different hand placements. It's so boring I can barely stand it. What are you gonna do?

[NICKYPOO]

I respect you for asking about the build sheet! Yeah we took the quad out. Rode pretty much as expected. Goes straight, goes vertical. We'll make a few changes and see how that does.

It's looks a little stuffy in the sense that it looks very straightline-ish. In NASCAR terms, it looks like it rides "tight" (won't turn). I would assume James would like to "free it up" a bit. How you gonna go about that? Less width in the tail? Less overall length? More rocker? With speed and release being the ultimate factor to "shape" around, what design element would have the least amount of effect on speed? If I'm getting too nosey, feel free to tell me to shut up at any time.

[Surfdad]

I respect you for asking about the build sheet! Yeah we took the quad out. Rode pretty much as expected. Goes straight, goes vertical. We'll make a few changes and see how that does.

[NICKYPOO]

I certainty does look like it will turn better but, it sure does look fast.

DOESN'T look like it will turn better. Stupid smart phone.

I kinda figured the build sheet would be top secret. Oh well. Closed mouth don't get fed, right. Did you guy ride it yesterday or was that surftoboggin only?

[Surfdad]

Yeah that's the build sheet from Stretch. No you can't see it

The wings do a few things, all sort of related. First they straighten the rail line. Parallel rail lines like that help a board go faster in trim and down-the-line. So if you can imagine the outline of the board remaining the same, but without the wings...a continuous curve from the tail to the mid point. The material outside of that line straightens the rail line.

That abrupt angle at the wing allows the tail to be brought in tighter/smaller much quicker without a funny hip. Tighter smaller tail allows quicker and shaper turns. It's still a fairly wide tail, but much smaller than if the rail line was continued in a smooth arc. That abrupt change also gives James something to turn on. Not like a pivot point, but the water releases like crazy right in that area.

[NICKYPOO]

Thanks for answering my questions surfdad. That's some good info. Is that a build sheet taped to the top side. I would love to see that.

I certainty does look like it will turn better but, it sure does look fast.

Out of curiosity, on the other board, which appears to share that same shape as the flyboy and JWPM, the little wing along the rail at the fin. Any chance you could elaborate on that thing? Why its there and how it helps do whatever it does? Obviously the new board is completely different and that feature is gone.

[jbort]

Hey Surfdad - I'm real serious & will pop an email.

[Surfdad]

@jbort are you serious about the broadcast? I'd love to get rid of it.

@ nickypoo Man you have a good eye! I know you have always had the attention to detail, but holy crap how can you see that well?

The rails are kinda funky, we're playing with them a bit. Not really sure how well they'll work, but it had potential in a garaged-prototype. The nose is a bevel'ish shape or chine'ish, almost like you's see in a nose rider. James stalls a bunch with the board revert and we're giving up a BUNCH of flexibility with that stupid quad arrangement, so we're hoping to gain some sensitivity back with that bevel/chine. Also, taking the board vertical it gives a real crisp break on the face.

There's tons of misinformation about going vert, as you know water wraps curved surfaces, the sharp rail on your skimmers gives amazing release. Once the water is released, it doesn't reconnect, so we are trying to get it away from the rails going vertical as quickly as possible with that bevel/chine...while also giving James his rail in the water when he is revert.

So that is that wide point and rail thing you spotted.

The V panel in the boo is a good catch also. There are some internal things going on that aren't tested fully, so I'll keep that under wraps for now. I'm a little concerned it'll be crap, but sometimes one man's crap is another man's...well crap

The bottom on the existing board is a big single concave, this new board is a double to V. The double starts very close to where that V panel stops on the deck. It's hard to see, but that panel of 'boo that runs from mid to tail is split down the middle, so it's actually 3 pieces of 'boo. The V patch in the nose and then a right and left piece thru the tail. Some of that is appearance, some is that's it's easier to bag the 'boo over the complex curves when it's cut into pieces like that and some, I think, has some functional purpose.

We've also moved the trailers on the quad way inboard. Well not wayyyyy they are an arrangement that Stretch has found successful on his boards in sloppy beach break. For James, the hope is they'll be inboard enough to miss the wake when he is revert and give him the thrust and aerial height.

We'll see. Mostly the board is a transition to the this judging criteria where the only trick that seems to score is a wakeboard grabbed aerial.

Thanks for checking it out Nick!