Sad Day in Salt Lake City

[Domsz06]

this thread is getting deep, but it's good for this community!

[Tequilasun]

The spirit of the law is not to shoot people, it's to deter people from commiting crimes in the first place for FEAR that they will get shot. I'd be interested in how many people carring weapons A.) Shot someone in self defence B.) Were killed trying to protect someone/thing C.) Were scarred from the incident...ie Killed someone while raping a young girl then had psyc problems for 5 yrs....etc.etc

I can agree with that. I have a concealed carry permit (although I rarely carry). I suppose my permit makes up a number, and that number is what deters some criminals. Ie "I'm not going to go shoot up the mall, because 100,000 Missourians have concealed weapons" *numbers made up*

I know personally that I would be greatly effected by the outcome of a situation like these, but that does not deter my conviction that if my family were in danger I would use the weapon (again, if I am actually carrying it).

I have been around guns of all forms for most of my life, and I know how to fire, and hit what I am aiming at, almost as an instictive reaction. How I would react in such a pressure situation, I can't say. But hopefully the training that I have had (which is above normal, but below police grade) would take over. I suppose my thoughts would be less to shoot the person, but more to draw their fire away from my family. To be honest I don't know if I could do the same for someone else....honestly. I'd like to think so, but as Ray mentioned, who really knows until it hits the fan.

[sparky216]

The spirit of the law is not to shoot people, it's to deter people from commiting crimes in the first place for FEAR that they will get shot. I'd be interested in how many people carring weapons A.) Shot someone in self defence B.) Were killed trying to protect someone/thing C.) Were scarred from the incident...ie Killed someone while raping a young girl then had psyc problems for 5 yrs....etc.etc

[Tequilasun]

I for one am very glad that I have never had to be in the situation to take a human life.

Sparky & Ray, I thank you for your service as well.

As for whether or not concealed carry would have helped, I think everyone here says the same thing, who knows. In that situation if I could have distracted that young man with return fire, I certainly would have tried. The consequences of maybe hitting someone else would have been dire. I know I would have a hard time living with it.

I have personally seen what killing a person can do the the human Psyche, as we "Lost" an uncle for a period of years after he returned from Viet Nam. I also "lost" a good friend who returned from Afganistan and Iraq a couple years ago...I only hope he finds his way as well.

I know these incidents weigh heavy on my mind as I try to mold my two children.

[sparky216]

BTW, this is getting awful DEEP for a Tigeowners.com thread....lol

[sparky216]

I am strongly opinionated that unless you are trained to react without thinking, trained in the consequences of the results, trained in the ability to shoot accurately; using a concealed weapon is not going to be a solution. At best you will get 8 shots and they will in all probability miss. You are now a target and have further enraged the assailant.

We agree for the most part, it's the relevance part we tend to differ on. I try to understand what it must be like to kill another human and regretfully I'm unable to comprehend. For that I will differ to your knowledge and experience.

In the 31 states that now have "concealed right to carry" laws, murders were down, on average, by 8.5 percent.

Rapes were down 5 percent and serious assaults by 7 percent.

In cities with populations of more than 250,000, murder rates dropped after the passage of such laws by an average of 13.5 percent.
According to the studies, the fall in crime did not result from an increased use of guns, but from potential criminals avoiding confrontations. In fact, criminals apparently shifted to lower-risk offenses, since property crimes increased in those states. Other findings included:

The most dramatic falls in murder rates were in areas where the number of women carrying firearms was high.

The study found that for every woman who carries a concealed hand, the murder rate fell by three to four times more than it would have if one more man had carried a concealed gun.

If states with concealed handgun bans had allowed them in 1992, about 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes and more than 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided.
In addition, the researchers found no evidence of an increase in accidental killings or suicides in states with concealed carry laws.

Sources: Ian Katz, "'Gun Law' Cuts Crime Rate, US Study Finds," Guardian, August 3, 1996, and Dennis Cauchon, "Study: Weapons Laws Deter Crime: Fewer Rapes, Murders Found Where Concealed Guns Legal," USA Today, August 2, 1996

I believe it's a resonable and effective approach to deter crime, and by detering crime it's not about being the police......it's about everyone knowing that 10% of the population is carring a gun and people aren't just going to roll over and let you commit that crime anymore. Again I respect your views, I served in Desert Storm and never killed anyone, you have in Vietnam. I think we agree on 75%, I just believe it's a much more relevant and useful program.

Regards,

[Moki]

Ray,
Thank you for your service. First of all, I do not have a concealed weapon permit. Secondly, I don't pretend to know what I would do in that situation. But, I know that if my family was in danger and I had a gun, I would have a completely different frame of mind and would use it. Regarding hitting a target, I have been shooting guns and hunting ever since I was young. I also know that it is not easy to hit a moving target, let alone a target shooting back at you.

Since I don't believe you can understand it unless you experience it, I am aware enough to understand that it would be a huge trauma to take another human life. All the more reason, that I have high respect for any policeman or serviceman. If somebody other than the policeman would have a gun, would it have made a difference? Nobody knows for sure, it's all hypothetical and every person has different shooting skills and ability. If they are protecting themselves and their families, I think they would be motivated. Thankfully, the man who did come to the rescue was trained. Not all the facts are out yet, but according to statements that he has made. He did not kill the gunman, it was the Salt Lake City police. Could another person with a gun that was not trained, at least distracted the gunman until the police arrive? Who knows?

You may support it but I doubt it would have done much good.

Unless you are trained to use the weapon as deadly force, ie shooting another human, it is not easy to do. You will in all probability not hit the person you are targeting and now you have just made yourself a target.

If you should happen to succeed and were to kill a person you would have to live with that the rest of your life. You will also get sued for wrongful death and have huge legal bills. Your life will change forever.

I was involved in Viet Nam. I was trained to kill with a weapon and it still did not come easy. I was legally authorized, encouraged, to kill other humans with the blessing of the government. Still it was never easy. Seeing a head explode, a chest exit the back of the body, stomachs ripped apart, take your pick. Hollywood does not adequately demonstrate the horror of such an event.

So if you want to carry a concealed weapon, if you want to attempt to kill someone, if you think you could even succeed, then more power to you. I have no problem with concealed weapons. What I have a problem with is people thinking they could have saved the day when in all probability they would have made it worse and probably lost their own life. You would have six or eight shells in your weapon and I seriously doubt that any one of those shells would have made their target.

The person that is doing the killing is not mentally stable, you are. Pulling that trigger to take another life is much harder than anyone could ever imagine which is especially true when under pressure.

[Domsz06]

I have seen someone die in person, and can tell you it's one of the sickest scariest things to witness in real life. I also know that I too have been in position to make life or death choices. I can't say I have a thought yet on carrying concealed, but I do know that the thought has crossed my mind. I feel though that the states are making it to easy to carry, and that it's going to get innocent people killed. I have thought about getting mine, but at the same time, still don't have it.

I just choose to observe my surroundings and try to stay clear of bad things.

[Domsz06]

i don't get people, they are just killing me. Why is everyone going around killing everyone?

[raythompson]

Pulling the trigger on a innocent human.....hard Pulling the trigger on someone shooting at me.....I really have to respectfully disagree with you and say that is a no brainer.

Ok, I understand your disagreement. Having been in a position where someone was shooting at me I have a little different perspective. It isn't easy. It is certainly easier than when someone is not shooting at you, but it still is not easy. Unless you are trained there is that split second of indecision that may prove to be fatal. After it is all over, you have peed your pants, lost control of your bowels, and shake uncontrollably while in a cold sweat. You realize that you were lucky and for many nights you are unable to sleep.

Then for days, weeks, months, and years you cannot get the images out of your head. Yes, it was you or them, but you are still affected as you have taken a human life. You have done something that would get you the death penalty as it was indeed premeditated. You thought about, you trained for, you did it, more than once. Yet you are supposed to have no emotions and it is supposed to be OK because it was sanctioned by your boss.

I am strongly opinionated that unless you are trained to react without thinking, trained in the consequences of the results, trained in the ability to shoot accurately; using a concealed weapon is not going to be a solution. At best you will get 8 shots and they will in all probability miss. You are now a target and have further enraged the assailant.

To this day I will not carry a weapon, hidden or not. The consequences of leathal actions are just too severe, physically and mentally.

I accept and understand your disagreement, but I cannot agree with it.

[yllw20]

I agree it is sad for all families involved. The first thing I thought of was the people from utah on this site. I have never met any of you, but you were the only people I could relate to that area. I am glad that you are all safe, to my knowledge.

Concealed carry...we have it here. I dont. I dont want a gun around the housw due to young children.

I was raised in a boating family and we never were around guns really as a kids.

I think it can be a partial deterant knowing that someone else could be packing. But, in this case I think the kid went in knowing he was coming out and when you have that case at hand, concealed carry isnt a deterant.

[sparky216]

You may support it but I doubt it would have done much good.

Unless you are trained to use the weapon as deadly force, ie shooting another human, it is not easy to do. You will in all probability not hit the person you are targeting and now you have just made yourself a target.

If you should happen to succeed and were to kill a person you would have to live with that the rest of your life. You will also get sued for wrongful death and have huge legal bills. Your life will change forever.

I was involved in Viet Nam. I was trained to kill with a weapon and it still did not come easy. I was legally authorized, encouraged, to kill other humans with the blessing of the government. Still it was never easy. Seeing a head explode, a chest exit the back of the body, stomachs ripped apart, take your pick. Hollywood does not adequately demonstrate the horror of such an event.

So if you want to carry a concealed weapon, if you want to attempt to kill someone, if you think you could even succeed, then more power to you. I have no problem with concealed weapons. What I have a problem with is people thinking they could have saved the day when in all probability they would have made it worse and probably lost their own life. You would have six or eight shells in your weapon and I seriously doubt that any one of those shells would have made their target.

The person that is doing the killing is not mentally stable, you are. Pulling that trigger to take another life is much harder than anyone could ever imagine which is especially true when under pressure.

I concur, that is why obtaining a conceal/carry permit is quite the challenge. You need to prove that you are a marksman and psychologically stable to carry it.
I was in the Persian Gulf on VBSS teams (Visit Board Search and Seizure) and we used to train with the Coast Guard drug opps teams. We boarded oil tankers for the UN in search of contraband and illegal oil. I'm well aware that hand guns are not only difficult to use but nearly ineffective in close quarters. The odds of a layman weekend shooter hitting the subject at 20+ yards out with a handgun is slim to nil, but what happened in Utah is the off duty officer cornered the attacker in a shootout and saved so many lives. What if there were 5 other people in that mall with handguns, less would of died. I hear you on the Rambo complex, many think that firing a handgun is easy, or that killing someone is easy, I agree it's not a simple as one would think. I do think that these animals that like to shoot people would maybe reconsider there targets if they knew that the playing field would be a bit more level....ie there was a good possibility that someone would shoot back. Pulling the trigger on a innocent human.....hard Pulling the trigger on someone shooting at me.....I really have to respectfully disagree with you and say that is a no brainer.

[lee]

I was involved in Viet Nam.

.

Thank you for your service to our country.

[raythompson]

I support it as well

You may support it but I doubt it would have done much good.

Unless you are trained to use the weapon as deadly force, ie shooting another human, it is not easy to do. You will in all probability not hit the person you are targeting and now you have just made yourself a target.

If you should happen to succeed and were to kill a person you would have to live with that the rest of your life. You will also get sued for wrongful death and have huge legal bills. Your life will change forever.

I was involved in Viet Nam. I was trained to kill with a weapon and it still did not come easy. I was legally authorized, encouraged, to kill other humans with the blessing of the government. Still it was never easy. Seeing a head explode, a chest exit the back of the body, stomachs ripped apart, take your pick. Hollywood does not adequately demonstrate the horror of such an event.

So if you want to carry a concealed weapon, if you want to attempt to kill someone, if you think you could even succeed, then more power to you. I have no problem with concealed weapons. What I have a problem with is people thinking they could have saved the day when in all probability they would have made it worse and probably lost their own life. You would have six or eight shells in your weapon and I seriously doubt that any one of those shells would have made their target.

The person that is doing the killing is not mentally stable, you are. Pulling that trigger to take another life is much harder than anyone could ever imagine which is especially true when under pressure.

[Moki]

Apparently, the kid was from Bosnia and some are speculating that being from a war torn nation had something to do with it. But the whole trench coat, multiple weapons and a cache of ammunition is a theme that we see often. I find it interesting that there is a law suit that will require any film that portraying smoking as sophisticated or cool will automatically receive an "R" rating. Yet, violence is allowed without the batting of an eye. But, oh yeah, according to Hollywood, movies do not influence people or society.

Coach,
I have a lot of respect for teachers today, you have way more challenges to face than any of the teachers when I was growing up.