The Quest for the Perfect Wakesurfing Boat

[ragboy]

RJ and I have been on a quest for a year, to have the best wakesurfing boat for our family. We even made a pact, that if we discovered that our boat was NOT the best for what we wanted, I would go to mom, and deal with it, to get a new boat (gasp). We have been very committed to this, especially since last august forward. Here were are requirements:

clean/steep wake with well defined lip
clean transition, no disruption from swim platform
long pocket for recovery and momentum for tricks/air
good enough wake to practice on for competition
all sacks hidden
must retain enough storage for a family of 8
not forced to sit in specific places for long periods
great wake on both regular and goofy sides
quick and easy change from side to side
100% water, no lead, sand, or steel pelletts


In the end, and if you followed the "Dialing it in" thread, you know this, we found how to make some minor mods to our tige (swimstep) to get what we wanted. I feel very fortunate that we had the right boat for us all along. We had a lot of fun working this all out, and I documented it in a 2 part blog style video. Here is a link to them.

http://wake9.com/blogs/ragboy/2009/06/09/the-best-wakesurfing-boat-for-wake9/

Let me know what you think.

Embedded video Part 1 (hit hd for best quality):

psRSZHogu1o

Part 2:

mk_2Z6xakqw

[rogersbm82]

nice work. Congrats on ending the quest too.

[eks]

Great wake ragboy! Your kids are awesome surfing.

I am also glad to see that I am not the only one to push my kids in the water...

[ragboy]

Thank you, and yes, I push them/throw them in all the time. All part of the Garcia/wake9 experience.

[G-MONEY]

All that hard work only to find out the boat of you dreams is already on your lift....

The grass is not greener on the other side...:ro::ro:

[sparky216]

nice videos Ragboy!

[dogbert]

Nice job, ragboy! :ro:

[KonaKing]

Great family Rag there is nothing more important. Strong work.

[ragboy]

All that hard work only to find out the boat of you dreams is already on your lift....

The grass is not greener on the other side...:ro::ro:

Yes, that is true. Honestly, after the castaic contest last year we were determined that we would buy another boat if that was the end result of our quest. At the time, it seemed like a possiblity because we could NOT get the wake right, especially on the goofy side. But when we saw the sanger v237 with the new surfdeck and the smooth bottom, it gave us the idea to test changing the deck. That was EVERYTHING. That was all the tige needed. Once that was done, the wake was awesome. The sanger also put out a very decent wake on both sides, but I think the tige is a much better boat, and safer with the higher freeboard. When you weight down many boats, like a Sanger, you REALLY feel like you are sinking. The tige handles the weight MUCH better. The other extreme is the EPIC. That boat has a HUGE freeboard, and you can barely tell its weighted with a few thousand pounds. But it makes a terrible surf wake. And that is from first hand experience.

Great family Rag there is nothing more important. Strong work.

Thank you, and I know. What can I say, I love em and love being around them 24/7.

[Coop]

Again, excellent work, and thanks for sharing.

One question -- no ballast up front? My wake is big but short, and I had heard I needed ballast up front to make it longer. Do your sacs extend up under the side seats?

[ragboy]

The sacs go on both sides, all the way up to just behind the driver seat, about the same on both sides, pass side is a bit longer. No wait up front. Not only did we try every configuration, but keep in mind that I have 350+ hours on my boat right now, and 90% of that is surfing. Here is what I would say about weight up front, you get the same effect with putting taps down, it brings the nose down, like weight would. However, with weight up front, you can't use taps when you want to bring the bow UP. Also, since we lost all of our storage in back, we still have storage up front. The wake you see in the videos, and looking at the video from the pontoon, you can see that wake, with the long pocket, is done with the taps at 6-7 and bow up.

So, first, it isn't really necessary. But second, I think it very much decreases safety. When we weight our boat down, we are taking a risk, but we do it as safely as possible. I am sure you do the same. When you add weight to the bow, you make it much more difficult to get the bow up. When we tested with bow weight, this was an issue. And it becomes important you also control people going up there. So if you have 600lbs in front sac, then 2 people go up front to see something, you are seriously plowing.

So, it doesn't help, and IMHO, I think it really decreases safety.

[Coop]

Good thoughts. Thanks again.

[Duncan]

Wow. Taps at 6-7. Will have to try that. I am usually at Taps 4 but that was when I was over tweaking with a full front sack and a partially full non-wake side rear sack. When I got above Taps 4 in that config, the wake washed out.

Last weekend, off side rear empty and front empty worked like a charm at 12 mph taps 4. Can't wait to try Taps 6-7 in that config!

Also, last weekend was the first we rigged for dark side. I am the only goofy rider and the boat is usually full of people that want to learn to surf--as a result, we stay on port wave. A side benefit of rigging for dark side last weekend was one of our riders discovered he was a "closet goofy" foot :p

On the dark side subject, the whole boat was VERY envious about just how much better the dark side wave is :ro:

[ragboy]

The only thing I would add, is it took the swapping out of the swim deck to get the results I have. You should get good results with your deck, but when you really start listing over to get the best wake the stock fiberglass deck will be a hinderance. I am not sure how a teak deck does, but I know the stock deck is an issue.

We can switch our boat over with a switch in 12 minutes, its a beautiful thing, and the wakes are almost identical.

[Duncan]

well, until you start selling smooth bottomed Wake9 shaped swim platforms, I guess I will have to limp along with my 09 (slightly improved but not enough) fiberglass platform.

I wonder if insets you could glue (or otherwise attach) under the platform to make the edge continuous and smooth would aid the wake?

On that note, the rough edges under the platform have already cut my hand several times. We ride, swim, and surf in the river, so often you have to reach under the platform to arrest you drift. The edge is less than smooth. Anyone smooth that out?

[murphini]

so.... inquiring minds want to know:

1. When will wake9 be selling modified swim platforms? I have an 07 24ve, love it btw.

2. Can you point me to the Ballast Install thread? I remember you getting the custom bags fabricated somewhere--more curious on the pump(s)used, switches, etc. Filling the 540# bags manually with a uuber pump ain't my idea of fun.

[ragboy]

1. on the deck. This cost me 2k when all was said and done. I can make them for the 24Ve. I have already worked out getting them done cheaper by Samson with his CNC machine and stuff. It is still expensive. I can make them and retail for about $1100 to $1200. You tell me, how many of you would be interested? The 24Ve is easy, I have the template that I know works. For other boats, I would have to create a prototype, and make sure it worked. I have checked with Tige about working with a dealer, but there is NONE around me anymore, and I need a boat for a few days to take measurements and test. So I have worked out the manufacturing, but not test, measure, and prototype.

2. Ballast. There are some issues here, but we are working on this. I will start a thread tonight, this needs its own thread.

[ragboy]

I can add this...

If I get 3-4 people interested in a deck for the 24Ve, done. I can get it done. If you are willing to bring your boat to the wake9 LAB we could measure and mount a wood prototype. We would take the boat down the road to the lake (9 miles) and make sure it does what it is supposed to do. Then I order the deck. Then I can do with other similar boats. Anyway, that is how it would have to work.

If there was enough interest, I would get it done. Samson is ready to go, and I have my engineer larry ready.

[dogbert]

$2K :eek: For that money, I'd want a hydraulic mount on my swim platform that raises and lowers :02:

[ragboy]

Yes, $2k was a lot, but one offing, and doing it the first time made it more expensive. But to do 3/4" aluminum the size that is needed, retail would be $1100-$1200, can't get lower than that.

[Timmy!]

That's a lot of pop and beer cans that I am going to have to save up and have melted down...I'd better start drinking! :D

[murphini]

Thanks--but am thinking 1200 + towing my boat from KS to Calif wake9 bat-cave/lab is more than I'm looking to do right now. I still haven't quite dialed in my surfing skills to be going to your level yet.

wake9 is good stuff. Keep it coming-great to see a family having fun together.

[harv]

[QUOTE=ragboy;347891]Yes, that is true. Honestly, after the castaic contest last year we were determined that we would buy another boat if that was the end result of our quest. At the time, it seemed like a possiblity because we could NOT get the wake right, especially on the goofy side. But when we saw the sanger v237 with the new surfdeck and the smooth bottom, it gave us the idea to test changing the deck. That was EVERYTHING. That was all the tige needed. Once that was done, the wake was awesome. The sanger also put out a very decent wake on both sides, but I think the tige is a much better boat, and safer with the higher freeboard. When you weight down many boats, like a Sanger, you REALLY feel like you are sinking. The tige handles the weight MUCH better. The other extreme is the EPIC. That boat has a HUGE freeboard, and you can barely tell its weighted with a few thousand pounds. But it makes a terrible surf wake. And that is from first hand experience.



You say the surf wake on an Epic is terrible... My buddy is looking at buying an Epic. He's been talking to one of the guys from Epic and he has done surf mod's (prop and swim platform) on his personal boat to make the wake "insane" as he calls it.
What made the surf wake terrible? We are actually going to test drive and surf one tonight.

[Timmy!]

What made the surf wake terrible? We are actually going to test drive and surf one tonight.
It's steep, short pocket, double lip, etc. Take your surfboard and try and ride it, you may like it. It looks impressive inside the boat, the wave is over 3' tall (no joke) but then you ride it and it's very cumbersome. It's so steep that you get to a certain spot and it literally launches you into the boat, some may like that, I personally did not. Kind of funny, my wife was giving me major crap while riding behind it asking if I was a n00b, if I was tired, what was my problem and then she got back there and only rode for about 3 minutes and said forget it!

The biggest key here is RIDE THE WAVE, don't judge it from inside the boat!

[harv]

I did hear about the "steep" part of the wake from Tommy Czeschin (Crowley wakesurfers). We'll be bringing the skim board with tonight... this should be a good test for a stock, non-mod wake anyway.

Thanks for the input.

[Timmy!]

I will add that the one I was riding behind had between 11-14 people, that may make a difference but it was running stock ballast.

[ragboy]

I did hear about the "steep" part of the wake from Tommy Czeschin (Crowley wakesurfers). We'll be bringing the skim board with tonight... this should be a good test for a stock, non-mod wake anyway.

Thanks for the input.

First, let me say, that EPIC was great to bring the boats out for the contest, and they were extremely nice and supportive. So much so, if the boat put out a great surf wake on both sides, it would be on my consideration list.

That said, I don't think the boat could be modified to make a good surf wake. It can be surfable, but not a good wake to progress with. At the contest, they brought boats with them that were modified for surf. The decks looked like someone took a saw to them to cut them down, and remove the lip to make them smooth underneath. On top of that, lead was used to place in strategic places, and Dennis Horton (known as the Master Weighter) worked to weight them, and had time on the lake before the contest to try to get the best wake. The wake was extremely steep, and even though it seems huge, the lip is halfway up the wake, so the usable part of the wake, is actually smaller. Here is a great example of a pic from the contest with Judy Walker.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_UXqS5otSuOI/ShNxQWkatCI/AAAAAAAABHk/hve83SoQ6qQ/s800/DSC_0390.jpg

The wake looks huge, but look at that lip in the center, that is the top of the usable wake. Also, it doesn't have enough push. Everyone was having trouble, pros included, staying in the pocket. You were easily sucked out the back. I think more time could make it a bit better, but at the end of the day, I think this is the result of their hull shape. It makes the desired wakeboard wake they were looking for, but not the best surf wake.

I have tons of pictures and video. Here is my picassa page, you can see many pictures from the contest, all pulled from epic 23vs.

http://picasaweb.google.com/wakenine/

And here is video of just about every run.

http://wake9.com/blogs/norcal-merced-wakesurfing-competition-2009/

[dogbert]

Not the greatest pics, but here's a 22Ve w/o ballast (well I'm in the boat, but you can count the peeps). My son learned to free surf that day behind the 22Ve prototype. What a sweet ride!

http://tigeowners.com/photos/data/504/2872006tigesurf1.JPG

http://tigeowners.com/photos/data/504/287surfin-texas-style.JPG

[ragboy]

How old is your son? Go to the catch the wave link on wake9.com, and I will send him a free tshirt. Just send me a quick YT vid of him freeriding, so I can post in the blog. The shirts are cool, and they are not the cheapos, they are the hanes beefy t shirts.

[harv]

Okay, we went and test drove the Epic 23V last night. Super windy, huge waves. Boat handled fairly well with no weight, however, heading into the wind if we slowed the boat down too quickly, we got a boat full of spray from the bow. The bow when slowing down pushes water up and forward. This combined with big winds made for a wet ride.

We got to an o.k. surfing location and filled port side ballast. Drove with no rider to figure out best speed and wakeplate adjustment. The wake did not look anything like the pictures posted by Ragboy... but, the driver was turning a constant left turn. We told him to drive straight. This is when the wake turned UGLY, just like the pics. We surfed a little, driving in a circle of course. The wake was steep but ridable, but a very short pocket (as all feedback mentioned). Great for busting some airs with very little effort but hard to recover from a moment of hesitation.

The bow with weight in the boat was very close to the water, too close for comfort for me anyway.

From there we went and test drove an Axis... What a joke. Seriously. The dealer was bragging up the boat and the wake prior to filling the ballast. We filled stock ballast on port side, plus a 700 lb sac in back locker with a 200 lb sac on the back seat, 3 guys sitting on side, wedge down. The surf wake was no more than 1-1/2 ft tall with absolutely no steepness at all. The dealer was pretty embarrased. Swim platform was probably the wave wrecker, but it would be impossible to customize this due to it's molded shape and a home-made deck would probably look silly.

Makes me feel good that my 20 ft Tige' still throws out a way better wake than anything we've tested yet from other manufacturers. My friend doesn't want to get into a Tige' after he rode in an 07 RZ2 with splitting seams on the interior. Too bad! The search continues.

[Timmy!]

Thanks for reporting back Harv! I think the Centurion would be your next best bet if he doesn't like the Tige's.

[ragboy]

Yeah, that is tough on the Tige. I love my Tige, but the vinyl has never been one of its finer points. My 2007 vinyl is def showing its age, and I have been thinking of that as a winter project.

You def don't want a boat that you have to drive in circles to get a surf wake. My wake on my tige is best when straight, and I can turn in either direction while still keeping the surfer riding, just messes up the wake a bit til I am straight.

I have heard the new tiges have done better on the vinyl, but I haven't been in one myself, but I would at least check if I were you. In the end, a great surf wake, if you plan on mostly wakesurfing, is what is going to make you the most happy. And on my tige, it is not only great, but the most versatile I have seen.

If you are stuck on NOT a tige, some other boats I have seen put a good wake on both sides are:

Centurion Avalanche
And Vince Piercey is a photog I know, and I have been out with him while they are surfing, and he takes a lot of great pictures, he looks like he has a pretty good wake on his MB B52.

Anyway, give the tige vinyl another chance, but I understand your concern.

[ragboy]

Thanks for reporting back Harv! I think the Centurion would be your next best bet if he doesn't like the Tige's.

Not the enzo, unless you plan on having a boat with a wake ONLY on one side. There are a couple of guys on wakeworld, that would prob spend any amount of money to fix that issue, and still cannot. If you are buying a boat for wakesurfing, get one with a good wake on both sides, at least that is my 2 cents.

[Duncan]

And Vince Piercey is a photog I know, and I have been out with him while they are surfing, and he takes a lot of great pictures, he looks like he has a pretty good wake on his MB B52.


Mmmmm... I love the idea of the gated ballast system on the MB's. But I have never seen one in person, much less the wake. Overhead view of the swim platforms makes it look like they are severely raked in from the side. And talk about free board.

[Timmy!]

The MB's have terrible build quality though IMO. I looked at MB's and thought about them pretty hard from pictures. I went to the boat show and looked at them and moved along quickly.

I went out on my buddy's '08 22Ve last night, vinyl is noticeably thicker but the stitching looks a little loose. Surf wave on his Ve is awesome BTW, better than my RZ2 with the same weight (platform, I know, I know).

[Duncan]

I sure wish Tige had gotten the gated ballast system up and running this season. Maybe next? I have not heard any updates.

[ragboy]

The MB's have terrible build quality though IMO. I looked at MB's and thought about them pretty hard from pictures. I went to the boat show and looked at them and moved along quickly.

I went out on my buddy's '08 22Ve last night, vinyl is noticeably thicker but the stitching looks a little loose. Surf wave on his Ve is awesome BTW, better than my RZ2 with the same weight (platform, I know, I know).

I have seen his MB on the water, it seems pretty nice, but that is the end of it for me with his boat, never been on it, or any other MB so can't really say, so that is good feedback.

Sorry to hear about your deck. It makes such a huge difference. I wish we all lived closer together, we could get your boat in our bay and measure it up for a custom aluminum deck.

[Timmy!]

Our Tige reunion is in 2 weeks and Tony usually brings a new boat along, hopefully it will have it or he will have some answers!

[Duncan]

Sorry to hear about your deck. It makes such a huge difference. I wish we all lived closer together, we could get your boat in our bay and measure it up for a custom aluminum deck.

Once you have decks designed for a given model (e.g., 09 RZ2), have you given any thought to freight shipping? Wonder how much that would be? Hmmm, maybe next season :D

[MTtigekid]

The only thing I would add, is it took the swapping out of the swim deck to get the results I have. You should get good results with your deck, but when you really start listing over to get the best wake the stock fiberglass deck will be a hinderance. I am not sure how a teak deck does, but I know the stock deck is an issue.

We can switch our boat over with a switch in 12 minutes, its a beautiful thing, and the wakes are almost identical.

the teak on our boat IMO doesnt cathc in the wake nearly as much as the fiberglass ones do... ours doesnt hardly influence ours at all. i will try and snag some pics this weekend

[Timmy!]

I'm not all that worried about it anymore to be honest, it still puts out a great surf wave and I have more fun than ever when surfing behind it. If I had kids that were competing (or if I was), I would definitely be doing everything that you are ragboy! BTW, I really appreciate all of the effort that you are putting into the wakesurfing scene!

[AustinSouthSide]

Speaking of re doing platforms, wasn't there a guy on here that got a custom teak platform built for an RZ2 to replace his fiberglass platform? I wonder if that route would be cheaper than the aluminum one that Ragboy built. Ragboy, did you look at that option? I personally am a fan of the teak deck, I love mine on my 22V. Just thinking out loud and killing time before I go to happy hour after work. 40 minutes and counting...

BTW - Ragboy, I love your surfing videos, I am going to use your tips next time I go out.

[ragboy]

Speaking of re doing platforms, wasn't there a guy on here that got a custom teak platform built for an RZ2 to replace his fiberglass platform? I wonder if that route would be cheaper than the aluminum one that Ragboy built. Ragboy, did you look at that option? I personally am a fan of the teak deck, I love mine on my 22V. Just thinking out loud and killing time before I go to happy hour after work. 40 minutes and counting...

BTW - Ragboy, I love your surfing videos, I am going to use your tips next time I go out.

Thanks for the feedback, and your welcome, we honestly love doing them. Its a family work.

As far as teak...

My reasons for going with aluminum:

1. I didn't want to do this twice. I was 60-70% sure teak would work, but 80-90% sure aluminum would work, and probably better. And I was going for the best outcome.
2. The only drawback I could think of with aluminum, was cost, and weight. Weight seemed to be a benefit, and I was willing to pay.
3. Nothing would be smoother on the bottom, which I know was MOST of the issue.
4. 3/4" aluminum would be PLENTY strong, and it DEF is. All of those videos are done with me and someone else standing on it.
5. Aluminum gives me a chubby, have you seen my tower?

Teak I am sure is better than fiberglass, but I know that taking off the corners like I did on my deck also helped, and I could make ANY shape from aluminum. Did I mention aluminum gives me a chubby?

Maybe I could get da bell a room for the night up here, and we could shape a wood prototype for his RZ2 and test it on oroville, then I could make some. But I would need at least 5 people to contact me via wake9.com with high interest in paying about $1100-1200 for a deck. I would be able to make for 24Ve and RZ2. I can't just make one or two at that price, because of the size of the aluminum sheets that have to be purchased for the CNC machine. I think I can safely say $1100.

[da.bell]

I'll help out if needed ragboy. Not entirely interested in the swim platform but if someone is interested, I can help out. :02:

You would have the swim platform for the 22Ve, RZ4, 24Ve, and RZ2 then. The platforms are the same for each series of model that I am aware of.

[ragboy]

Thank you, and I figured as much, but would confirm.

[ragboy]

I will let you keep the wood prototype. lol. The Wake9 Surf Deck, POS version.

[da.bell]

^^^ Cool!!! :D

hahaha, let me know if you need an RZ2. I can definitely help out if others would like to have one made. :ro:

[G-MONEY]

Did I mention aluminum gives me a chubby?


No, but I think we all know it give RJ one.....:o:o

:D

[ragboy]

No, but I think we all know it give RJ one.....:o:o

:D

ROTFLMAO!

[harv]

After riding behind so many boats and dreaming about something bigger and better than my Switch V, I've become more and more content with what I have. Great regular side wake and decent goofy wake (I've now paid attention to swim platform and notice significant drag...) Just wish my boat could hold more people. We run a wakeboard program with 18 kids (2 boats needed and still crowded in my boat) and a learn to wakesurf program with 6 kids (perfect number). My biggest problem is that I love to shop for boats, yet I have no money:D

Here is a pic of my boy (5) surfing with me. I'd say the wake is managable;)

16649

[harv]

can't get picture to upload??? My boy is kneeling on his knees and the wake is over his head. Up to mid thighs on me. Camera angle taken into account.

[harv]

Never mind "can't get picture to upload". Ha ha Mentally challenged today. Pic was taken from swim deck.