FLIP OR FLOP!

[zad0030]

Epics new hybrid, Clicky Linky (http://23e.epicboats.com/)

I give it a Flop.

Seems to really be plowing, look at how all the pics while cruising people are in the front and also look at the bowrise!

Look at the trailer as well, the wheels are located very close to the rear. Or am I imagining that?

It needs some tweaking. The technology is not there yet, especially for the marine enviroment. Great concept though.

And I bet its not cheap either. :D
http://23e.epicboats.com/images/23e-11.jpg

[sparky216]

I say fail for two reasons.

1. Unlike a car that is used on a daily basis, a boat is used much less frequently. A wakeboat is used much less than a cabin cruiser, honestly how much fuel would you need to burn through to justify a hybrid engine in a wakeboat?

2. Most people who buy these boats factor fuel into their purchase. I get a kick out of people b!tchin about gas prices as they fill up their $60k boat being towed by a $50k rig. My hourly cost to entertain a family of 4 plus guests is actually quite cheap on my boat compared to bowling or a movie......and a hell of a lot more fun!:ro:

[zad0030]

Haha, I just realized that fail or flop makes no sense.

Changed it to flip or flop.

Good point sparky.

[Timmy!]

I say flop but I really don't like those boats, they are just so danged ugly!

[noworries]

This seems like a "hybrid" that is electrically driven and recharged with a constant RPM generator. That's my kind of hybrid. It'd be interesting to see how it pulls. An electric motor could be really fun. As for the emissions, well, OK. Give me torque. The electric motor should do so very well. And ballast, it comes with all the lead (batteries) you could probably need.

I wonder what voltage they run the motor on. That could be interesting around water.

[sparky216]

February 26, 2009 The low-emissions, fuel-saving benefits of hybrid technology aren't limited to the freeway and systems incorporating electric propulsion are popping up in all areas of transport. On the water we've seen hybrid tugboats and solar hybrid motor-yachts, but this is the first time we've seen hybrid technology in a speedboat. Billed as a world's first electric hybrid sport boat, EPIC Wakeboats EPIC 23E relies entirely on a silent, emissions-free electric motor for propulsion and uses half the fuel and produces half the emissions of its combustion-powered equivalent.

Due for release in Spring 2009, details are still scarce on the 23E - it uses a Flux Propulsion EVO 8.1 Marine Drive System which "features an extremely powerful and compact drive motor that draws from cutting-edge battery technology". Recharge takes one about hour and the boat incorporates a touch-screen interface for control of stereo and video entertainment along with the GPS Speed Control.

“The EPIC 23E will change the way people think about water-sports," said EPIC Wakeboats CEO Chris Anthony. "Not only is the design more environment-friendly, but it is a more affordable option for boating enthusiasts at a time when everyone is watching their budgets.”

[sparky216]

xMC_0zPWQYc

[malarson]

Great...What's next a hybrid lawnmower??

[MoneyPity]

That Epic sure doesn't need rear ballast but might need some front ballast to get the nose down when not surfing.

Based on how it is riding and the trailer shot the back of that boat with the battery banks probably exceeds 99.9 % of what is done on most ballast systems.

I think flop. I am not crazy about appearance, cost would finish paying off my house and I would be concerned about medium to high speed handling if high speed exists.

Concept is good idea. First generation is questionable and may be flop.

[CrazyJ83]

Great...What's next a hybrid lawnmower??

why waste gas in a lawnmower when it could be in your boat, you need to get yourself one of these... unless your yard is larger then an acre then you need one of these. maybe a little over kill but I still want one LOL

[highrock]

When Epic wanted the place I worked over the summer to become a dealer I was told the price would be about the same. I think its an awesome idea thats going to change the marine industry. Its going to take a while, but I bet before too long other manufactorers will be doing this also.

Great job Epic! This is a FLIP

[Razzman]

As do I highrock, it's a shame so many dump on Epic without even knowing the boats.

[gstauffer]

I think this is very cool concept and should be given a chance.

Do I want to be the guy on the lake to buy the 1st one: No Way, but if it sticks and improves with other manufacturers bringing options to market I would definitely consider it as an option.

Any guesses as to which one of the big 3 or 4 will be the 1st to follow suit if @ all?

[da.bell]

I think it will take some time to get use to. Eventually, I think this will be a FLIP when done. The first year we will hear about a tons of FLOPS becuase it's new and there are going to be issues.

[RubberDucky]

I said something like this should be built a while back in one of my post. I am glad to see a concept like this come out. Having a small generator to supply a electric motor is so much more effiecient than to do it mechanically by going through a trans and gear boxes. You have instant torque and are able to take a lot of load with an electic motor and better acceleration times (in cars not sure the effect on a boat).
This technology has been proven to work and has been working for quite some time now, just wonder why it too so long to come out. This technology is in Diesel electric trains. They use the diesel motor to turn a 6ft in diameter generator to supply electricity to all the eletric motors.
Thats my 2 cents.
as for flip or flop I am going with flip in ten years or so that is all we are going to see in boats, or a version of it.

[yllw20]

can you get the hybrid tax rebate? is this all part of the hopey, hope, hope and changey change change plan?

[mtnsmith]

There are already some hybrid cruisers on the market, like you said, they produce electricity that is stored in batteries either through generator, wind generators, solar cells, or by being driven by a sail when windy and using the propellers in the water spinning while the boat is sailing to hydraulically generate the power. These boats all have the same things in common though, they are large, slow, and terribly expensive as compared to their traditional counterparts. We will definitely be seeing more of these types of technology on the water, but it will be several years before things are perfected. The marine environment is a lot more difficult and dynamic to work with than four wheels on the pavement. I gotta give it to epic though, talk about a bold move from essentially a startup company, more power to 'em!

[Fast1911]

that mirror sure does look sweet......

[TJRiver]

February 26, 2009 The low-emissions, fuel-saving benefits of hybrid technology aren't limited to the freeway and systems incorporating electric propulsion are popping up in all areas of transport. On the water we've seen hybrid tugboats and solar hybrid motor-yachts, but this is the first time we've seen hybrid technology in a speedboat. Billed as a world's first electric hybrid sport boat, EPIC Wakeboats EPIC 23E relies entirely on a silent, emissions-free electric motor for propulsion and uses half the fuel and produces half the emissions of its combustion-powered equivalent.

Due for release in Spring 2009, details are still scarce on the 23E - it uses a Flux Propulsion EVO 8.1 Marine Drive System which "features an extremely powerful and compact drive motor that draws from cutting-edge battery technology". Recharge takes one about hour and the boat incorporates a touch-screen interface for control of stereo and video entertainment along with the GPS Speed Control.

“The EPIC 23E will change the way people think about water-sports," said EPIC Wakeboats CEO Chris Anthony. "Not only is the design more environment-friendly, but it is a more affordable option for boating enthusiasts at a time when everyone is watching their budgets.”



It's good to see someone has finally realized the benefits of the flux capacitor.........................:p

[sparky216]

It's good to see someone has finally realized the benefits of the flux capacitor.........................:p

1.21 gigawatts;)

[Fit to be Tige]

What was I thinking 1.21 jigawatts!!!

[zad0030]

Maybe this similar to Honda-toyota. Honda makes a hybrid, it doesnt do great but then toyota comes out with theirs and it really sticks.

From a performance perspective this is great! But lets face it, In the large picture, how much money are you really saving?

[Razzman]

Zad, you need to see the BIGGER picture, not the large one. :D It's about much more than saving YOUR money, how about saving fuel and the environment we live in so future generations can enjoy it too? Not slammin' ya but that's the way most americans think as we're used to excess. If that way of thinking doesn't change soon there won't be any thing to excess about, period. Just sayin, think about it ... :cool:

[xpjim1]

x2

[chpthril]

(1)Over 50% reduced total carbon dioxide emissions
(2)Nearly 90% reduced carbon monoxide emissions at wakesurfing rope lengths
(3)Virtually no risk of CO2 poisoning with our hybrid drive system

First off, CO2 is carbon dioxide and is not the poisonous gas we need to fear, it's CO (carbon Monoxide that is colorless, odorless, tasteless poisonous gas omitted from the combustion of Hydrocarbons.

(1) From what? No baseline given, is this from the same engine without an E/H system?

(2) Again, compared to what?

(3) there's is virtually no risk of CO poisoning when surfing behind any late-model ECM controlled EFI engine. I've see the EPA test results, they are below the std's for both the EPA and OSHA.

These statements are very misleading and dangerous. When running the engine, you are exposed the same gasses as any other boat. The stated reductions are only when the engine is off and the electric motor is on.

The Epic 23E burns 50% less fuel than a typical wakeboard boat on a 4 hour wakeboard outing

Gotta call :bs: The car manf's tried this in the early days till it was leaked that the test where done on an unloaded Dyno with no people in the cars and no account for wind resistance or uphill and stop and go driving.

Enjoy a full day of unrestricted wakeboarding with this hybrid system
You can wakeboard for 1 hour on batteries without ever burning a drop of fuel

So, it burns 50% less fuel in a 4 hr period, but you can only get 1 hour of wakeboard time in, sorry, doesn't add up.
You can wakesurf for 3 hours on batteries without ever burning a drop fuel
It can be fully re-charged by the generator in about an hour
The 23E can be re-charged from a typical 110v wall outlet or a 220v wall outlet once home or at a dock


Hmmm, what runs the generator???? and what does it burn???? What is burned to make a good portion of the electricity that will be recharging that battery bank when plugged in?

I'd like to know how much weight is added to the boat by the battery bank, generator, and drive motor. This additional weight, that will be towed by our vehicles, will cause an increase in fuel usage, which in turn, adds to the greenhouse gasses, SMOG, carbon emissions (soot), etc.

Sounds like a lot of :bs: to me, should be named the Epic AG. :02:

[MTtigekid]

FLOP
cause i dont like blue and white :D
stir the pot, stir the pot

[zad0030]

Ok, where to start.

I guess I will start by saying that the idea of "We are killing the planet" is wrong. Merely because we are not killing the earth, we are killing ourselves. Its been calculated that the earth is ~4.55 Billion years old. Humans (homo sapiens) on the other hand have only been around for 100k-200k years. To put this in perspective, imagine that the life span of earth is a 24 hour day. Humans will only be around for 5 of the 86,400 seconds. What I am trying to say is that the earth has survived for a very long time, and it will continue to survive with or without us on it. We are only making it worse for ourselves. So much for thinking man (homo sapien).

Now as for hybrid technology. It is still not where we need it to be. Especially with the batteries, they dont last longe enough. So they need to be recharged via gas. It goes by a theory of "dust to dust". Even though the hybrid vehicle, whatever it may be, uses less gas it now uses electricity. Where does that electricity come from. Most likely coal. Another fossil fuel that produces 57% of the United States electricty. Also these vehicles use rare earth element batteries that are harmful to the enviroment.

In order for hybrid technology to have an impact it needs to be environmentally friendly from the top. Which starts with where the energy comes from, IE hydroelectric, wind, and solar. Unfortunately these forms of producing electricity aren't very efficient yet. So do you really think the handful of hybrid vehicles running around now are actually making a difference? Maybe it puts a few extra bucks in your pocket and makes you feel good, but ultimately thats it.

Now the CO2. If the boat is equipped with a catylic converter (which if its as environmentally friendly as it claims it should) it will conver the CO into CO2. CO2 in enough quantity is still a deadly and harmful gas. The reason CO is more deadly, is because it is odorless, tasteless, and colorless. If you are wakesurfing behind a boat thats pumping out CO2 where you are wakesurfing I can see that as being a risk.

I still think that this is not going to live up to its claims. I think that the gas engine will be running a lot to keep up with the demand.

So overall, this is a great step forward. Hybrid technology in boats, atleast we can be called homo sapiens again. But the its still not ready.

Also, one thing that is mentioned on this site quite a bit, "if you can afford to buy a $60,000 boat, why are you worried about the gas?!"

Ok end rant. My fingers are tired and Im not sure what I even stated to begin with.

[MoneyPity]

Last year when we replaced a tow vehicle I was really serious about the Tahoe Hybrid. It had the ability to tow my 20V and when on batteries performance was ok and when needed the v-8 would kick in.

The vehicle was a step in the right direction to deal with the hydrocarbons issues. Putting that aside, the price of the hybrid was in the upper $50k range and even with gas prices were they were at last year the payback of the Cost delta between the hybrid and an E85 version was a long pay back period with hybrid vs ethanol or gas. The 08 LT I bought was almost $20k less than the Hybrid. I agree with the need to do what we can to save the environment but the cost has to be affordable. Even in the economy models of vehicles the the time it takes to make up the price difference between hybrid and conventional/E85 is still too wide a gap IMO. E85 is a great idea. problem with it is between where I live and where we vacation I could only find 2 stations on the route that sell E85. I am sure they are more but not as a quick fuel stop on a long trip.

[Razzman]

Ok, where to start.

I guess I will start by saying that the idea of "We are killing the planet" is wrong. Merely because we are not killing the earth, we are killing ourselves. Its been calculated that the earth is ~4.55 Billion years old. Humans (homo sapiens) on the other hand have only been around for 100k-200k years. To put this in perspective, imagine that the life span of earth is a 24 hour day. Humans will only be around for 5 of the 86,400 seconds. What I am trying to say is that the earth has survived for a very long time, and it will continue to survive with or without us on it. We are only making it worse for ourselves. So much for thinking man (homo sapien).

Now as for hybrid technology. It is still not where we need it to be. Especially with the batteries, they dont last longe enough. So they need to be recharged via gas. It goes by a theory of "dust to dust". Even though the hybrid vehicle, whatever it may be, uses less gas it now uses electricity. Where does that electricity come from. Most likely coal. Another fossil fuel that produces 57% of the United States electricty. Also these vehicles use rare earth element batteries that are harmful to the enviroment.

In order for hybrid technology to have an impact it needs to be environmentally friendly from the top. Which starts with where the energy comes from, IE hydroelectric, wind, and solar. Unfortunately these forms of producing electricity aren't very efficient yet. So do you really think the handful of hybrid vehicles running around now are actually making a difference? Maybe it puts a few extra bucks in your pocket and makes you feel good, but ultimately thats it.

Now the CO2. If the boat is equipped with a catylic converter (which if its as environmentally friendly as it claims it should) it will conver the CO into CO2. CO2 in enough quantity is still a deadly and harmful gas. The reason CO is more deadly, is because it is odorless, tasteless, and colorless. If you are wakesurfing behind a boat thats pumping out CO2 where you are wakesurfing I can see that as being a risk.

I still think that this is not going to live up to its claims. I think that the gas engine will be running a lot to keep up with the demand.

So overall, this is a great step forward. Hybrid technology in boats, atleast we can be called homo sapiens again. But the its still not ready.

Also, one thing that is mentioned on this site quite a bit, "if you can afford to buy a $60,000 boat, why are you worried about the gas?!"

Ok end rant. My fingers are tired and Im not sure what I even stated to begin with.

No offense meant here Zad but maybe as you get a bit older you'll see the bigger picture because right now you're still missing it, and trying to wage a war of book smart words over common sense won't get you there.

[MTtigekid]

Ok, where to start.

I guess I will start by saying that the idea of "We are killing the planet" is wrong. Merely because we are not killing the earth, we are killing ourselves. Its been calculated that the earth is ~4.55 Billion years old. Humans (homo sapiens) on the other hand have only been around for 100k-200k years. To put this in perspective, imagine that the life span of earth is a 24 hour day. Humans will only be around for 5 of the 86,400 seconds. What I am trying to say is that the earth has survived for a very long time, and it will continue to survive with or without us on it. We are only making it worse for ourselves. So much for thinking man (homo sapien).

Now as for hybrid technology. It is still not where we need it to be. Especially with the batteries, they dont last longe enough. So they need to be recharged via gas. It goes by a theory of "dust to dust". Even though the hybrid vehicle, whatever it may be, uses less gas it now uses electricity. Where does that electricity come from. Most likely coal. Another fossil fuel that produces 57% of the United States electricty. Also these vehicles use rare earth element batteries that are harmful to the enviroment.

In order for hybrid technology to have an impact it needs to be environmentally friendly from the top. Which starts with where the energy comes from, IE hydroelectric, wind, and solar. Unfortunately these forms of producing electricity aren't very efficient yet. So do you really think the handful of hybrid vehicles running around now are actually making a difference? Maybe it puts a few extra bucks in your pocket and makes you feel good, but ultimately thats it.

Now the CO2. If the boat is equipped with a catylic converter (which if its as environmentally friendly as it claims it should) it will conver the CO into CO2. CO2 in enough quantity is still a deadly and harmful gas. The reason CO is more deadly, is because it is odorless, tasteless, and colorless. If you are wakesurfing behind a boat thats pumping out CO2 where you are wakesurfing I can see that as being a risk.

I still think that this is not going to live up to its claims. I think that the gas engine will be running a lot to keep up with the demand.

So overall, this is a great step forward. Hybrid technology in boats, atleast we can be called homo sapiens again. But the its still not ready.

Also, one thing that is mentioned on this site quite a bit, "if you can afford to buy a $60,000 boat, why are you worried about the gas?!"

Ok end rant. My fingers are tired and Im not sure what I even stated to begin with.

told ya you just needed a good rant

[MTtigekid]

No offense meant here Zad but maybe as you get a bit older you'll see the bigger picture because right now you're still missing it, and trying to wage a war of book smart words over common sense won't get you there.

yo dog.. umm were the ones the will end up dealing with the "bigger picture" in the future, i think zad has the right idea IMO

go young guns!!

[Razzman]

Whatever, i'm just glad i won't be around when this "new and progressive" thinking youngest generation totally hoses everything. It won't be pretty that's for sure. :ro:

[MTtigekid]

Whatever, i'm just glad i won't be around when this "new and progressive" thinking youngest generation totally hoses everything. It won't be pretty that's for sure. :ro:

hahaha, who then got us into the situation that we are currently in? ;)

[zad0030]

Whatever, i'm just glad i won't be around when this "new and progressive" thinking youngest generation totally hoses everything. It won't be pretty that's for sure. :ro:

I really dont want to turn this into another arguement, we have enough of those going around lately.

Obviously I still fail to see this BIG PICTURE. So please enlighten me.

I feel I covered every aspect in depth in my last post.

As far as the future I don't think things can get too much worse then they are now. The saddest part is that we fell into the same trap that we did back in the 1920s. Shouldn't that teach us something. Obviously the young generation of that era learned something becuase they were able to recover and turn the country around. Now the next generation seemed to fall back in the same trap. Now its my generations job to recover.

Let me ask you something. When you were my age, were you thinking about your future? Were you thinking about what you were going to do with your life? Were you thinking about what state this country is going to be in when you grow up and become a part of it? Were you thinking about how you can impact the world? Because let me tell you what, I am. And It scares the hell out of me. Because I dont know what its going to be like, but I can prepare the best I can. So that when the time comes I am ready. So is that what you did at age 17 or were you more worried about getting laid next weekend or where you wake up tomorrow?

As for oil goes, this country should have starting moving away from its dependence on it in the 70s. Its been stated in this thread before that the technology used in cars, and now this boat, have been around for decades in Diesel trains.

:02:

[MoneyPity]

Well spoken Zad

[MTtigekid]

bravo my man!!

[chpthril]

Last year when we replaced a tow vehicle I was really serious about the Tahoe Hybrid. It had the ability to tow my 20V and when on batteries performance was ok and when needed the v-8 would kick in.

The vehicle was a step in the right direction to deal with the hydrocarbons issues. Putting that aside, the price of the hybrid was in the upper $50k range and even with gas prices were they were at last year the payback of the Cost delta between the hybrid and an E85 version was a long pay back period with hybrid vs ethanol or gas. The 08 LT I bought was almost $20k less than the Hybrid. I agree with the need to do what we can to save the environment but the cost has to be affordable. Even in the economy models of vehicles the the time it takes to make up the price difference between hybrid and conventional/E85 is still too wide a gap IMO. E85 is a great idea. problem with it is between where I live and where we vacation I could only find 2 stations on the route that sell E85. I am sure they are more but not as a quick fuel stop on a long trip.

I'm all for reducing emissions, but the problem with hybrid tow vehicles, is that they will never be off the gas while towing.

[Razzman]

I really dont want to turn this into another arguement, we have enough of those going around lately.

Obviously I still fail to see this BIG PICTURE. So please enlighten me.

I feel I covered every aspect in depth in my last post.

As far as the future I don't think things can get too much worse then they are now. The saddest part is that we fell into the same trap that we did back in the 1920s. Shouldn't that teach us something. Obviously the young generation of that era learned something becuase they were able to recover and turn the country around. Now the next generation seemed to fall back in the same trap. Now its my generations job to recover.

Let me ask you something. When you were my age, were you thinking about your future? Were you thinking about what you were going to do with your life? Were you thinking about what state this country is going to be in when you grow up and become a part of it? Were you thinking about how you can impact the world? Because let me tell you what, I am. And It scares the hell out of me. Because I dont know what its going to be like, but I can prepare the best I can. So that when the time comes I am ready. So is that what you did at age 17 or were you more worried about getting laid next weekend or where you wake up tomorrow?

As for oil goes, this country should have starting moving away from its dependence on it in the 70s. Its been stated in this thread before that the technology used in cars, and now this boat, have been around for decades in Diesel trains.

:02:

Zad, i don't want to turn it into an arguement either. I've had 52 years on this earth, some good, some bad watching everything turn to ****. You and your 17 years qualified to go head to head with me?

At 17 I didn't have TIME to get laid, i worked full time for the family biz and went to school full time. At 21 i was helping running & managing the same family biz, going to school and had started a family. At 29 I joined the ARMY because the family biz collapsed due to the '74 recession and i had a family to feed. Would you do that? So in essence, yes i was thinking about my future because i didn't have a choice, i was being responsible! I was raised with morals of what was right and wrong, I sure as **** didn't spout off spewing crap out my mouth thinking i had all the worlds answers or repeating what i read off of the internet.

The gist here, does your generation have that kind of enthusiasm? Dedication or determination? Hell no they don't and you know it. Look around you, your comment of your generation getting the country out of this mess is a joke acknowledged by many. Many of the top Universities have stated the dismal outlook going forward. They were talking about your generation. Overweight, lazy, unenthused, stoned and unfortunately under educated without a clue where they are going for the most part. I'm not lumping you in that category as we've never met, but the statistics show a good portion of your generation is just that.

The BIG picture if you haven't figured it out is that MAN has ruined this planet and it WILL only get worse and while yes it MAY heal itself long, long after we are gone there is no way to correct the wrongs due to unwise decisions made long ago and the IGNORANCE of people to accept that and try to help ANYWAY we can. Now ever increasing over population, shortages of food, shrinking agricultural lands, dissapearing fossil fuels will eventually lead to mans downfall. Talking about what the country should have done is just an excuse for ignoring the future and not having an answer.

Third world countries either too ignorant or greedy, having just attained either the status or technologies we had 30 years ago are speeding up the process. Mexico is about to implode literally from the inside out and pouring more drugs into this country than we can begin to stop or you'll hear on the news. How will your generation fix all of this siiting on their fat asses eating twinkies playing video games while texting their BFF and using those same drugs?

Your only kidding yourself if you think any of this can be reversed before this planet, sick of the parasite called man, closes the final chapter. And while some scientists will state it's a cycle the earth is going through, man has only made it much worse. So let's keep thinking that way, "it's only saving 5% emmissions" or "I don't contribute that much", that way you can help speed things up for your generation. Did you know the technology existed in the 1940's to more than double the current mpg of a vehicle? It never saw the light, It wasn't financially sound for the oil companies and was squashed.

You stated your scared, son you damn well better be because it's only going to get a hell of alot worse and as it does society will just keep on collapsing. But your twinky eating, video gaming buddies won't care, they'll be too stoned to notice anyway.

And BTW i wasn't stupid enough i guess to contribute the current economic mess. I bought my home 18 years ago on a 30 year fixed and only re'fied to gain a lower rate. I wasn't one of those dumbasses stupid enough or ignorant enough to buy into an arm mortgage. I didn't have to have everything and help lead this country to excess.

Remember all of this mess, everything that's happened to this 4.55 billion year old planet & this once hopefull society, has been done so in slightly over 100 years. So tell me Zad, what exactly are you going to be ready for?

Still think the future can't get any worse?

I'm not attacking you Zad, i just think you and your gen better get wise and get their **** together fast if your going to be of any help at all. I know a lot of us "old" guys think the same, as did our fathers too. The problem is each generation degenerates more and more. If you want to banter more on this then we'll take it offline...

[MoneyPity]

I'm all for reducing emissions, but the problem with hybrid tow vehicles, is that they will never be off the gas while towing.

The mpg of the vehicle in mixed driving and highway was only 2mpg better if I remember the specs correctly. Putting that into $$$$.cccc it would take the life of the vehicle or longer to pay off the difference in purchase price.

In small econo boxes hybrids may be worth it only of the prices of the hybrids become competitive. When you look at the improved mpg vs the added cost the payback for hybrids will not be realized by the original buyer who trades off every 5-6 years.:02:

There are alternative fuels and technology that can make a difference but it is blocked by big business, oil companies etc. We have much of the technology to produce cleaner running vehicles without fossil fuel but like other ideas that woud have helped the auto industry improve performance without fossil fuel the technology gets bought out and buried.

[Razzman]

hahaha, who then got us into the situation that we are currently in? ;)

Young guns huh junior? Can't come up with anything better than that? That was a rally cry for many corporations ten years ago, think up your own ****.

So you think the plight of millions of unemployed, un-housed americans is funny do you? I see your riding Zad's coattails throughout all of this vigorous discussion. Got anything intelligent to add or you just going to do a Spicoli and nod your head?

Geez, this is our future?

[Razzman]

The mpg of the vehicle in mixed driving and highway was only 2mpg better if I remember the specs correctly. Putting that into $$$$.cccc it would take the life of the vehicle or longer to pay off the difference in purchase price.

In small econo boxes hybrids may be worth it only of the prices of the hybrids become competitive. When you look at the improved mpg vs the added cost the payback for hybrids will not be realized by the original buyer who trades off every 5-6 years.:02:

Never said it was easy. If Americans, corporations and the government wanted it to happen it could.

[chpthril]

The mpg of the vehicle in mixed driving and highway was only 2mpg better if I remember the specs correctly. Putting that into $$$$.cccc it would take the life of the vehicle or longer to pay off the difference in purchase price.

In small econo boxes hybrids may be worth it only of the prices of the hybrids become competitive. When you look at the improved mpg vs the added cost the payback for hybrids will not be realized by the original buyer who trades off every 5-6 years.:02:

exactly, and here's another way to look at it......if the diff in MPG's is that tight that it takes that long to recoup the cost, then the diff in pollution will be just as close. So, in the end the only benefit was to Al Gores pocket :02:

[chpthril]

Young guns huh junior? Can't come up with anything better than that? That was a rally cry for many corporations ten years ago, think up your own ****.

So you think the plight of millions of unemployed, un-housed americans is funny do you? I see your riding Zad's coattails throughout all of this vigorous discussion. Got anything intelligent to add or you just going to do a Spicoli and nod your head?

Geez, this is our future?

I'll bet that's what old people (us now) said about us when we were that age :p :D :confused: :rolleyes:

[chpthril]

Bottom line, our biggest pollution problem is not fossil fuel, but the liberal richard gobblers spewing :bs: scare tactics and getting ritch off it. :02:

[MoneyPity]

Never said it was easy. If Americans, corporations and the government wanted it to happen it could.

I agree. If enough consumer pressure was focused many of todays energy issues could be improved upon. I remember a dirty jobs episode where a farmer produced his own energy sources from manure. There are alternatives but we the consumers again are the ones who have the power to influence and expedite change.

[Razzman]

I agree. If enough consumer pressure was focused many of todays energy issues could be improved upon. I remember a dirty jobs episode where a farmer produced his own energy sources from manure. There are alternatives but we the consumers again are the ones who have the power to influence and expedite change.

Exactly, you've hit right on the head; we the consumers again are the ones who have the power to influence and expedite change, but until we step up and make that happen ... :confused: :ro:

[Razzman]

I'll bet that's what old people (us now) said about us when we were that age :p :D :confused: :rolleyes:

So right you are, the problem is each gen just degenerates more and more :( But the worst thing i did as a kid was to tp a house or blow up a mailbox ... raping or killing someone was definately not on the short list! :eek:

[sparky216]

So right you are, the problem is each gen just degenerates more and more :( But the worst thing i did as a kid was to tp a house or blow up a mailbox ... raping or killing someone was definately not on the short list! :eek:

Razz,
Honestly I don't know of many teenagers committing rape. I'd love to see the statistics, but the majority of rape, molestation and murder that I see on the news is committed by 40 and 50 yr olds.

As far as this generation, perhaps you should get your news from somewhere other than the internet. Was every kid in the 60's on dope and a hippie? No, how about the 70's, was every kid a free spirit rock and roller? Nope, fact is there are some very bright minds and the majority of kids are honest and hard working. Perhaps a majority play video games, but that is the sign of the times. Not many kids in the 50's were involved in electronics, software innovation and telecommunications. Nor were they world travelers understanding different cultures, languages and foods. It's impossible to compare, but to group such a large population of this country into fat, twinkie eatting slobs is a bit preposterous.

I think many youth are foward thinking Americans, but gasoline is the most efficient fuel source. This idea that hybrid or alternative fuel source is the answer is just insane. Follow the money and you will see who supports this insanity! I'm all for alternative fuel sources, but craming ethnol and hybrid technology down my throat seem just like it is........cramming it down my throat. Where is the electric car? Really, WTF happened to it? I want one for my wife who travels less than 12 miles a day.........that seems so reasonable and easy to implement.

Like you I also had to enlist in the military because of family business and take care of my family. I got three kids and try to be as responsible as I possible can. I also remember that in the late 70's we were suposed to be entering an Ice Age........how did that work out? Frankly I'm tired of these 50-60 year old people who live in fantastic homes, travel the world and have uber lifestyles trying to tell me to unleash my boat and Tahoe because of "Global Warming". I work very hard for what I have and will apologize to no one for it. Many of us are hesitant to enlist in this theory because there have been so many in the past regarding doom and gloom. Perhaps the hesitation is warranted because it seems that our "elders" like to shotgun bailouts, stimilus packages and climate change as fast as possible......let's all take a deep breath and TRUELY PLAN for the future:02:

[Razzman]

Razz,
Honestly I don't know of many teenagers committing rape.

Being an Oregonian you probably wouldn't, move to California it's a whole different story here. Move to the Bay Area, you'll hear more crap in a day than you can stand. You'll also see a whole bunch of the new gen hanging on corners, cutting school, harassing pedestrians. I see it every day unfortunately. You being from Oregon i can see where you'd miss seeing all of this, Oregon is different for some reason.

[jwanck11]

The money trail goes back to very intelligent long term investors ie. gates, buffett and the like. I believe they know we will be on renewable energy in the future and are getting in at the right time.

I believe renewable energy will be widely used when its price (the price of the backstop technology) becomes less than the price of current resources... or when a governing body says "Make it So." It seems to me that those are basic principles of economics and/or government influence ovder the people it governs.

[MTtigekid]

Being an Oregonian you probably wouldn't, move to California it's a whole different story here. Move to the Bay Area, you'll hear more crap in a day than you can stand. You'll also see a whole bunch of the new gen hanging on corners, cutting school, harassing pedestrians. I see it every day unfortunately. You being from Oregon i can see where you'd miss seeing all of this, Oregon is different for some reason.

once again.. thats an extremely small group of people in the nation and the world as a whole!! dont lump all us "new generationers" in with some dumb punks that like to stir the pot in your city.. just sayin:)

[Razzman]

once again.. thats an extremely small group of people in the nation and the world as a whole!! dont lump all us "new generationers" in with some dumb punks that like to stir the pot in your city.. just sayin:)

Montana, that explains it. I have relatives in Whitefish and you know what it's probably one of the prettiest places in the country. And also impervious to most that crap. This stuff happens in ALL our metro cities across the country, and know the heartlands too or did you miss the 11 year old that killed his dad's GF last week? Heard of Columbine? Wasn't my gen that did that ... but I AM pretty sure it was yours. Let's see school shootings? How many in the last ten years? Never had one to my recolection prior but i could be wrong?

Btw it's not my city and your kidding yourself if you think it's a small group, it's around the whole damn country. But ya know when i was your age i didn't have a clue either about world events, just what was happening in my world. :D

[MTtigekid]

Montana, that explains it. I have relatives in Whitefish and you know what it's probably one of the prettiest places in the country. And also impervious to most that crap. This stuff happens in ALL our metro cities across the country, and know the heartlands too or did you miss the 11 year old that killed his dad's GF last week? Heard of Columbine? Wasn't my gen that did that ... but I AM pretty sure it was yours. Let's see school shootings? How many in the last ten years? Never had one to my recolection prior but i could be wrong?

Btw it's not my city and your kidding yourself if you think it's a small group, it's around the whole damn country. But ya know when i was your age i didn't have a clue either about world events, just what was happening in my world. :D

jeese i didnt know that living in montana automatically out of touch with national and world events:confused: btw i know kids who lived in the inner city in atlanta and they seem just fine.. so maybe you should only take all this "every young person is a rampaging killer" news you hear at face value, eh?

[MTtigekid]

well umm yeah this thingy got kinda off topic.. soooooooooooooooooooo lets get this train back on its rails ottay everyone?

[ImaPigDog]

Oh yeah, well my generation can beat up your generation. :p:D

:ot::bs:

[MTtigekid]

Oh yeah, well my generation can beat up your generation. :p:D

:ot::bs:

oh yeah oh yeah!!! well, 3:OO bike racks me and you!!!

[MoneyPity]

Montana, that explains it. I have relatives in Whitefish and you know what it's probably one of the prettiest places in the country. And also impervious to most that crap. This stuff happens in ALL our metro cities across the country, and know the heartlands too or did you miss the 11 year old that killed his dad's GF last week? Heard of Columbine? Wasn't my gen that did that ... but I AM pretty sure it was yours. Let's see school shootings? How many in the last ten years? Never had one to my recolection prior but i could be wrong?

Btw it's not my city and your kidding yourself if you think it's a small group, it's around the whole damn country. But ya know when i was your age i didn't have a clue either about world events, just what was happening in my world. :D
:ot:
I live in a large metro area and although there are issues with some young people to put a label on the current young generation is making a broad statement that does not apply to a significant part of the young generation.

I have seen a lot of the young generation in the last 15 years with daughters that have had numerous young men trying to date them. Some where not going to be brain surgeons or rocket scientists but the majority of them had positive goals and stayed away from drugs etc. Being near Chicago is far from being in nirvana and gangs and crime are still an issue in the areas of the city that had those issue when I was a teenager. We had then and we have now the same issues that the young need to deal with and hopefully follow the right path.

I came from a middle class family that could not send us to college in the 70's. My brother worked his way thru school, I went into the military to learn and decide what technology paths I would pursue and my younger sister paid her way thru trade school. I say this because I see many of the young men that my daughters have seen take similar paths. They don't have all the answers but a high percentage is looking for them.

Our young have grown up with in many cases both parents who have to work to make ends meet whether it be lifestyle driven or a necessity.

Bring up Columbine and I will toss out Richard Speck. Bring up the NIU shootings which affected my daughter and I will toss out Gacy. Disturbed people need help and unfortunately some young people have had depression hit them so hard it caused them to deal with it violently. I cannot see blaming or branding a whole generation for the acts of a few.

With the communication explosion we are all more informed and can easily see globally the events of our times.

As a baby boomer generation family man I have had to focus hard and work to provide for my family just like I am sure most of the owners of Tige boats do. I have put my childrens education ahead of things that I would have loved to have done.

The issues you raise are real and need to be addressed. They where there when I was a young Marine and are still with the country. The difference is that as a society we are more awae of what may have happened in Hoboken than we where 30 years ago, We cannot blame the generation bu provide oppurtunity for them to succeed.

[sparky216]

Being an Oregonian you probably wouldn't, move to California it's a whole different story here. Move to the Bay Area, you'll hear more crap in a day than you can stand. You'll also see a whole bunch of the new gen hanging on corners, cutting school, harassing pedestrians. I see it every day unfortunately. You being from Oregon i can see where you'd miss seeing all of this, Oregon is different for some reason.

Razz,
Well I wouldn’t go that far, we have our fair share of problems and issues plaguing this state. It’s not all roses in Oregon that I can assure you :).

My issue with your post (not you personally) is this idea that the youth is apathetic and uninterested in the process that will affect us and their future. Its one thing to make that statement, but another to then completely dismiss their involvement because of lack of age and experience. We cannot have it both ways, either dismiss them for lack of experience and wisdom thus removing them from the process or welcome their viewpoints and ideas because they are the future of this nation. I prefer the latter and try to guide their thought processes so they can be informed and productive members of this great nation.

I just got back from a big family dinner where we have all types. I welcome (she probably would say force) my 9yr old daughter to the table because it’s so important that she understand the issues and has the ability to formulate her own viewpoints as she grows older. Too many youth are shut out of these conversations but then expected to be able to formulate rational and wise decisions regarding the future of this country. The ability to reason and apply knowledge is something that unfortunately isn’t taught in our schools so it’s up to parents like you and me to ensure these essential skills are passed to our youth.

I would like to elaborate on my post because I have a sneaking suspicion that many on this site have similar circumstances.

My wife and I do well and have been blessed with a very good life. Recently my daughter and I got in to an argument regarding money and I felt that she was a spoiled brat. I love her dearly, but like a dad I dismissed her behavior to being a spoiled brat. This year I haven’t had a paycheck that was less than 150 hours. I’ve made seven trips to Alaska and two to Irvine with a total of 8 days home. I’m blessed to have a job and feel for those that don’t but I work a lot and on top of that I go to school full time. So I was really irked about the way she was acting and when we would talk she would clam up, probably due to the fact that I over power her with my voice, demeanor and language. How can she compete, she’s a child? So on Friday I picked her up from school and when we got home she wasn’t feeling well so I grabbed her stuff and off to bed she went. At her school there is a folder for parents outlining what they did, homework, and upcoming events….etc. There was a paper in this folder headlined “What I Want To Be When I Grow Up” so I fancied a look. Her answer was short but knocked me off my high horse and really tugged at my heart. Her answer to this question was “I want to spend more time with my daddy, he works very hard and is gone a lot”. My point being that I dismissed her and failed as a parent much like we do to our youth in this country. We expect results without putting in the time to nurture and foster what is truly important in this life. We need to prioritize what is important for our kids, is it the vacations and Tige’ or an attentive father that is there to talk too and instill values and morals in my child. It’s a tough situation that effects not only our children but the children of this country.

[zad0030]

The only reason why I am replying once again is because Razz directed a few questions towards me. I am going to try my best to answer them quickly and quietly and hopefully put an end to this discussion.

You and your 17 years qualified to go head to head with me?

Just because I am 17, does not give me any less of a reason to share my opinion than any other person. I'm riding this rollercoaster too, and just because im 17 doesn't mean my opinions do not count.

I was raised with morals of what was right and wrong, I sure as **** didn't spout off spewing crap out my mouth thinking i had all the worlds answers or repeating what i read off of the internet.
I was raised with morals as well. This crap I am spewing is probably some of the most intelligent things that my generation has to offer considering were all pot smoking lazy asses. Right? And I sure as hell don't have all the world's answers. BTW, there was no internet for you to read in 1974. :)

The gist here, does your generation have that kind of enthusiasm? Dedication or determination? Hell no they don't and you know it. Look around you, your comment of your generation getting the country out of this mess is a joke acknowledged by many. Many of the top Universities have stated the dismal outlook going forward. They were talking about your generation. Overweight, lazy, unenthused, stoned and unfortunately under educated without a clue where they are going for the most part. I'm not lumping you in that category as we've never met, but the statistics show a good portion of your generation is just that.
Can you prove that?
I have seen the next generation first hand! And I know some of these stereotypes you mention. There is a guy who fits it pretty well, but you would be utterly amazed at how smart he is. I have chemistry class with this guy and he never ceases to amaze me at how intelligent he really is despite what he does on the weekend.

How will your generation fix all of this sitting on their fat asses eating twinkies playing video games while texting their BFF and using those same drugs?
I guess that just makes us good multi-taskers. I don't have all the world's answers so I can't tell you how we are going to fix it. All I can do is hope and try my hardest to make a difference.

Remember all of this mess, everything that's happened to this 4.55 billion year old planet & this once hopefull society, has been done so in slightly over 100 years. So tell me Zad, what exactly are you going to be ready for?
I am going to finish highschool, with the best possible grades I can achieve. I am going to go to college where I will study engineering. I'm going to work my a$$ off to pay for my own college as well as other expenses.
My goal in life is to be recognized for doing something great. Sure I would like to be a comedian, rock star, race car driver, but all I really want is to prove to myself that my existence on this planet was worth my time and effort.

Still think the future can't get any worse?
Sure it can get worse, we could all end up dead.


I am going to use an analogy here even though it sucks.

This toilet of a country is going to take a lot more than a plunger to be unclogged.

I know its terrible....

As far as all the raping and killing, The only reason why It seems more common now is because the technology of today makes it so easy to acces information. News travels extremely fast. Not saying that crime rates have or have not increased though.
September 11th, how long did it take for you to find out what had happened? If it wasn't for my school not telling us what happened we would have known immediately. When JFK was killed how long do you think it took for some people to find out?
Point is, all these things are happening in the world and today its a lot easier to receive that info. BTW, Kent State Massacre, I believe that was your generation.....:rolleyes:

By accusing the next generation as being fat, stupid, stoners, you are not really provoking them to do much good. The world is full of negativity; you can't do this, you can't do that, well what CAN we do? Well apparently I CAN'T share my opinion on a public forum because I am 17. Apparently I CAN'T make a difference in this world because my generation is worthless. Apparently all I CAN do is accept the fact that my generation will not be able to fix this chit hole your generation (which of course was perfect in every aspect) threw us into.

End rant 3.

[ImaPigDog]

Razz,
Well I wouldn’t go that far, we have our fair share of problems and issues plaguing this state. It’s not all roses in Oregon that I can assure you :).

My issue with your post (not you personally) is this idea that the youth is apathetic and uninterested in the process that will affect us and their future. Its one thing to make that statement, but another to then completely dismiss their involvement because of lack of age and experience. We cannot have it both ways, either dismiss them for lack of experience and wisdom thus removing them from the process or welcome their viewpoints and ideas because they are the future of this nation. I prefer the latter and try to guide their thought processes so they can be informed and productive members of this great nation.

I just got back from a big family dinner where we have all types. I welcome (she probably would say force) my 9yr old daughter to the table because it’s so important that she understand the issues and has the ability to formulate her own viewpoints as she grows older. Too many youth are shut out of these conversations but then expected to be able to formulate rational and wise decisions regarding the future of this country. The ability to reason and apply knowledge is something that unfortunately isn’t taught in our schools so it’s up to parents like you and me to ensure these essential skills are passed to our youth.

I would like to elaborate on my post because I have a sneaking suspicion that many on this site have similar circumstances.

My wife and I do well and have been blessed with a very good life. Recently my daughter and I got in to an argument regarding money and I felt that she was a spoiled brat. I love her dearly, but like a dad I dismissed her behavior to being a spoiled brat. This year I haven’t had a paycheck that was less than 150 hours. I’ve made seven trips to Alaska and two to Irvine with a total of 8 days home. I’m blessed to have a job and feel for those that don’t but I work a lot and on top of that I go to school full time. So I was really irked about the way she was acting and when we would talk she would clam up, probably due to the fact that I over power her with my voice, demeanor and language. How can she compete, she’s a child? So on Friday I picked her up from school and when we got home she wasn’t feeling well so I grabbed her stuff and off to bed she went. At her school there is a folder for parents outlining what they did, homework, and upcoming events….etc. There was a paper in this folder headlined “What I Want To Be When I Grow Up” so I fancied a look. Her answer was short but knocked me off my high horse and really tugged at my heart. Her answer to this question was “I want to spend more time with my daddy, he works very hard and is gone a lot”. My point being that I dismissed her and failed as a parent much like we do to our youth in this country. We expect results without putting in the time to nurture and foster what is truly important in this life. We need to prioritize what is important for our kids, is it the vacations and Tige’ or an attentive father that is there to talk too and instill values and morals in my child. It’s a tough situation that effects not only our children but the children of this country.

Sparky,

Great post. Your sneaking suspicion is correct, at least in our world. My wife and I both work and our jobs can be demanding of our time (e.g. - my wife is out of town this weekend for her job). IMPO - There is nothing more cutting than hearing one of my children ask "Why do you always have to go to work?" or "When will you be home so we can play baseball (or insert other activity here)" and our kids are only 3 & 5. It is amazing how astute even the youngest children can be.

From one generation to the next, life will be different. The pace of that change is speeding up exponentially. Some things will be better, some will be worse. My mom went to a one-room schoolhouse in the sticks of Kentucky. Fortunately for me, she has worked hard all of her life to improve and she instilled those same values in me. Due to the hard work of my parents, I was fortunate enough to have better opportunities than they did. I hope that I can do the same for my children.

The onus is on those with the experience to pass that off and help educate those with less experience, even though the experiences may not be the same. Those with knowledge/experience on a particular topic assist others with less...isn't that what makes tigeowners.com great?!?

[dogbert]

Razz,
Well I wouldn’t go that far, we have our fair share of problems and issues plaguing this state. It’s not all roses in Oregon that I can assure you :).

My issue with your post (not you personally) is this idea that the youth is apathetic and uninterested in the process that will affect us and their future. Its one thing to make that statement, but another to then completely dismiss their involvement because of lack of age and experience. We cannot have it both ways, either dismiss them for lack of experience and wisdom thus removing them from the process or welcome their viewpoints and ideas because they are the future of this nation. I prefer the latter and try to guide their thought processes so they can be informed and productive members of this great nation.

I just got back from a big family dinner where we have all types. I welcome (she probably would say force) my 9yr old daughter to the table because it’s so important that she understand the issues and has the ability to formulate her own viewpoints as she grows older. Too many youth are shut out of these conversations but then expected to be able to formulate rational and wise decisions regarding the future of this country. The ability to reason and apply knowledge is something that unfortunately isn’t taught in our schools so it’s up to parents like you and me to ensure these essential skills are passed to our youth.

I would like to elaborate on my post because I have a sneaking suspicion that many on this site have similar circumstances.

My wife and I do well and have been blessed with a very good life. Recently my daughter and I got in to an argument regarding money and I felt that she was a spoiled brat. I love her dearly, but like a dad I dismissed her behavior to being a spoiled brat. This year I haven’t had a paycheck that was less than 150 hours. I’ve made seven trips to Alaska and two to Irvine with a total of 8 days home. I’m blessed to have a job and feel for those that don’t but I work a lot and on top of that I go to school full time. So I was really irked about the way she was acting and when we would talk she would clam up, probably due to the fact that I over power her with my voice, demeanor and language. How can she compete, she’s a child? So on Friday I picked her up from school and when we got home she wasn’t feeling well so I grabbed her stuff and off to bed she went. At her school there is a folder for parents outlining what they did, homework, and upcoming events….etc. There was a paper in this folder headlined “What I Want To Be When I Grow Up” so I fancied a look. Her answer was short but knocked me off my high horse and really tugged at my heart. Her answer to this question was “I want to spend more time with my daddy, he works very hard and is gone a lot”. My point being that I dismissed her and failed as a parent much like we do to our youth in this country. We expect results without putting in the time to nurture and foster what is truly important in this life. We need to prioritize what is important for our kids, is it the vacations and Tige’ or an attentive father that is there to talk too and instill values and morals in my child. It’s a tough situation that effects not only our children but the children of this country.

Great post, sparky! Helps put things in perspective.

[rogersbm82]

I don't see why you don't see more hydrogen boats. It is so easy to do and your ballast tank would be your gas tank in a way. You would have an endless supply of fuel, as long as it kept raining. lol

[chpthril]

Summer needs to get here QUICK!!!!!!!!!! The last 4 pages have nothing to do with a hybrid boat but everyone's sure got the richards out comparing them :D :p ;) :ro:

[MoneyPity]

Sparky,

Great post. Your sneaking suspicion is correct, at least in our world. My wife and I both work and our jobs can be demanding of our time (e.g. - my wife is out of town this weekend for her job). IMPO - There is nothing more cutting than hearing one of my children ask "Why do you always have to go to work?" or "When will you be home so we can play baseball (or insert other activity here)" and our kids are only 3 & 5. It is amazing how astute even the youngest children can be.

From one generation to the next, life will be different. The pace of that change is speeding up exponentially. Some things will be better, some will be worse. My mom went to a one-room schoolhouse in the sticks of Kentucky. Fortunately for me, she has worked hard all of her life to improve and she instilled those same values in me. Due to the hard work of my parents, I was fortunate enough to have better opportunities than they did. I hope that I can do the same for my children.

The onus is on those with the experience to pass that off and help educate those with less experience, even though the experiences may not be the same. Those with knowledge/experience on a particular topic assist others with less...isn't that what makes tigeowners.com great?!?

You summed it up nicely. One of the major issues between generations growong up is that the current generation has significantly more single parent environments, both parents working environments and less family time at the breakfast or dinner tables because of the working house hold.

My wife worked full time until or first daughter was born. At that point she went to work part time to supplement my income and I worked Saturdays at the railyards unloading Toyota's. Net result less family time on all ends.

When the kids went to school my wife still worked part time. I saw the kids off to school and my wife was always home when they came home from school. It was how we felt we could be the best parents as possible and still make ends meet until my technology experience started bringing in more income.

I go into the above because in the baby boomer generation our kids were not deprived of material things but many were deprived of having a parent available 24x7. We cannot say that that has had no impact because it did. We have seen it in other families of our generation where discipline was lax and homework and studies for some suffered. Does that make this generation what a few has portrayed them to be? IMO hell no. In many cases quite the opposite. With learning tools , the INTERNET and a whole new era of being able to look at issues and think for themselves has been amazing. I am proud of what my daughters were able to do and just as proud of what 80% of the people they associated with were able to do. The school district they went to had inner city issues like drugs, gangs, socialites and all the crap that existed in the 60's, 70's, 80's ...... The issues have been there for many generations and many kids of those generations are now leaders of companies, the military , government services and so on. Obama at 47 whether we like him or not is a inspiration to our young what can be achieved. Heck he is 47 and attempting to deal with our country. I hope that our system can help steer him in the right direction. At 47 he needs to be one heck of a manager otherwise we will continue to sink. He cannot fix it by himself.

The 17 year old of today have more information available to them at their fingertips then then I could ever imagine when I joined the computer industry eons ago. This gives them the ability to look at issues from many perspectives vs a 1 minute plug on the news and a few paragraphs in the paper.

What the current generations are being cheated out of is a college education because of the enormous costs of getting into good schools. In Illinois we are fortunate to have good State Universities like U of I, Northern Illinois, U of I Chicago etc. But even these schools are run down due to lack of funds and cost too much for many families. Dormitories are sick places to live because they are so old and need of much repair and maintenance but no funds to deal with them.

I digressed a little because they still can continue education with on-line classes that benefit them which many of them use.

In my R&D group we encourage our staff to keep up with continuing education. 30% of the staff are age 30 or less and of those members 70% are taking continuing ed classes where we will only help with those that are directly focused on technology , programming techniques and business.

IMO issues that are easy to say are caused by the laziness of the generation are short sided comments. Computer games are fun no doubt. But many of the games on the market in their own ways help our kids to think in multiple dimensions while playing a silly game. Parental monitoring of what they are playing is important and our responsibility to allow or disallow.

The INTERNET is a means where they can exchange ideas and challenge each other all the time irregardless if who they are exchanging ideas with are a block away or on another continent! Like anything the net has it's dangers and again we as parents need to monitor where and what our kids are using it for.

Bottom line is that in todays information age our kids have access to a world of issues, answers, and endless sources of research info and on and on.

When I was young I watched TV to relax. My daughters chatted on the net while researching homework. One has her masters and the other is working while pursuing an accounting degree.

Unfortunately this tool is not available to families who are living on the poverty line as generations before that had no access to TV and other info sources like a simple encyclopedia set. Now all of this is online.

We as a nation need to figure out how to get these type of tools to the people that cannot stretch their budget to fit in the costs of using the INTERNET in the inner cities across our nation. I donate at a minimum 6+ computers to various charities each year so someone can use the computers and INTERNET access to learn.

In most cases kids who have difficulty in enhancing their educations are not at fault but we are. I am by no means wealthy but I donate time and equipment to pass on what I have learned instead of saying since you are young you have nothing to contribute.

Even if they don't have the answers, what they say may stimulate an open honest conversation that can occur anonymously that gets us thinking without risk.

Instead of labeling them let's find ways to help those who are less fortunate and encourage our 17 year olds to take a chance and voice their opinions whether right, wrong or indifferent.

We should not demean them and slam the door in their faces but instead coach them and give them feedback that is not negative but instead feedback that encourages them to be free thinking and continue to challenge US.
(Rant off)

[Domsz06]

yup you got it right there Razz.

[Domsz06]

Whatever, i'm just glad i won't be around when this "new and progressive" thinking youngest generation totally hoses everything. It won't be pretty that's for sure. :ro:
again well said Razz. The younger gen is not getting it. (not like I'm old, but you know) :D

[Domsz06]

I really dont want to turn this into another arguement, we have enough of those going around lately.

Obviously I still fail to see this BIG PICTURE. So please enlighten me.

I feel I covered every aspect in depth in my last post.

As far as the future I don't think things can get too much worse then they are now. The saddest part is that we fell into the same trap that we did back in the 1920s. Shouldn't that teach us something. Obviously the young generation of that era learned something becuase they were able to recover and turn the country around. Now the next generation seemed to fall back in the same trap. Now its my generations job to recover.

Let me ask you something. When you were my age, were you thinking about your future? Were you thinking about what you were going to do with your life? Were you thinking about what state this country is going to be in when you grow up and become a part of it? Were you thinking about how you can impact the world? Because let me tell you what, I am. And It scares the hell out of me. Because I dont know what its going to be like, but I can prepare the best I can. So that when the time comes I am ready. So is that what you did at age 17 or were you more worried about getting laid next weekend or where you wake up tomorrow?

As for oil goes, this country should have starting moving away from its dependence on it in the 70s. Its been stated in this thread before that the technology used in cars, and now this boat, have been around for decades in Diesel trains.

:02:
Oil? you guys don't get it. The oil scare is a media story. There is enough oil for this country for so many years that your children Zad won't have to worry about it.

[Domsz06]

I'm all for reducing emissions, but the problem with hybrid tow vehicles, is that they will never be off the gas while towing.
yeah, but chp a hybrid helps even when it's on. The electric is still helping pull the boat from a stop and that's when the emissions are the worst. So the tahoe would be helping out on emissions since the electric would be helping. Once a vehicle is up and running then it's much more efficient.

[Domsz06]

Zad, i don't want to turn it into an arguement either. I've had 52 years on this earth, some good, some bad watching everything turn to ****. You and your 17 years qualified to go head to head with me?

At 17 I didn't have TIME to get laid, i worked full time for the family biz and went to school full time. At 21 i was helping running & managing the same family biz, going to school and had started a family. At 29 I joined the ARMY because the family biz collapsed due to the '74 recession and i had a family to feed. Would you do that? So in essence, yes i was thinking about my future because i didn't have a choice, i was being responsible! I was raised with morals of what was right and wrong, I sure as **** didn't spout off spewing crap out my mouth thinking i had all the worlds answers or repeating what i read off of the internet.

The gist here, does your generation have that kind of enthusiasm? Dedication or determination? Hell no they don't and you know it. Look around you, your comment of your generation getting the country out of this mess is a joke acknowledged by many. Many of the top Universities have stated the dismal outlook going forward. They were talking about your generation. Overweight, lazy, unenthused, stoned and unfortunately under educated without a clue where they are going for the most part. I'm not lumping you in that category as we've never met, but the statistics show a good portion of your generation is just that.

The BIG picture if you haven't figured it out is that MAN has ruined this planet and it WILL only get worse and while yes it MAY heal itself long, long after we are gone there is no way to correct the wrongs due to unwise decisions made long ago and the IGNORANCE of people to accept that and try to help ANYWAY we can. Now ever increasing over population, shortages of food, shrinking agricultural lands, dissapearing fossil fuels will eventually lead to mans downfall. Talking about what the country should have done is just an excuse for ignoring the future and not having an answer.

Third world countries either too ignorant or greedy, having just attained either the status or technologies we had 30 years ago are speeding up the process. Mexico is about to implode literally from the inside out and pouring more drugs into this country than we can begin to stop or you'll hear on the news. How will your generation fix all of this siiting on their fat asses eating twinkies playing video games while texting their BFF and using those same drugs?

Your only kidding yourself if you think any of this can be reversed before this planet, sick of the parasite called man, closes the final chapter. And while some scientists will state it's a cycle the earth is going through, man has only made it much worse. So let's keep thinking that way, "it's only saving 5% emmissions" or "I don't contribute that much", that way you can help speed things up for your generation. Did you know the technology existed in the 1940's to more than double the current mpg of a vehicle? It never saw the light, It wasn't financially sound for the oil companies and was squashed.

You stated your scared, son you damn well better be because it's only going to get a hell of alot worse and as it does society will just keep on collapsing. But your twinky eating, video gaming buddies won't care, they'll be too stoned to notice anyway.

And BTW i wasn't stupid enough i guess to contribute the current economic mess. I bought my home 18 years ago on a 30 year fixed and only re'fied to gain a lower rate. I wasn't one of those dumbasses stupid enough or ignorant enough to buy into an arm mortgage. I didn't have to have everything and help lead this country to excess.

Remember all of this mess, everything that's happened to this 4.55 billion year old planet & this once hopefull society, has been done so in slightly over 100 years. So tell me Zad, what exactly are you going to be ready for?

Still think the future can't get any worse?

I'm not attacking you Zad, i just think you and your gen better get wise and get their **** together fast if your going to be of any help at all. I know a lot of us "old" guys think the same, as did our fathers too. The problem is each generation degenerates more and more. If you want to banter more on this then we'll take it offline...
well said razz!!

[Domsz06]

um.....

were we not talking about a new hybrid boat?

[MoneyPity]

um......

it started that way..................


but then someone turned at the detour sign...................:eek:

[xpjim1]

I believe this post went :ot:

[MTtigekid]

um......

it started that way..................


but then someone turned at the detour sign...................:eek:

I believe this post went :ot:

it was like a head on collision.. horrible but no one could look away

[chpthril]

Are you guys still seeing who's got the biggest :rolleyes: :p ;)

[MTtigekid]

Are you guys still seeing who's got the biggest :rolleyes: :p ;)

haha i lost that game along time ago.. dont have the vocabulary for it :D

[MoneyPity]

Are you guys still seeing who's got the biggest :rolleyes: :p ;)

Not me ! I am all talked out and among the ranks of part time employement:p

Ouch................

[sparky216]

haha i lost that game along time ago.. dont have the vocabulary for it :D

he wasn't refering to your vocab, but you'd lose anyway so don't fret youngin':p:D

[sparky216]

:bo:Summer needs to get here QUICK!!!!!!!!!! The last 4 pages have nothing to do with a hybrid boat but everyone's sure got the richards out comparing them :D :p ;) :ro:

:bo:Oh king of Never Taking a Thread Off Topic...I bow to thee:bo:


:p:D

[MTtigekid]

he wasn't refering to your vocab, but you'd lose anyway so don't fret youngin':p:D

haha sure.. old man :D