Catt convertors on Boats

[whitlock87]

Ok in reading a different thread, I noticed people talking about new EPA guidelines for boats, is this going to turn into a nightmare? :eek:
Can they get wet? :confused:
In addition, is this only In California?::rolleyes:

Thanks for any info
David W.

[FIC]

The cat motors have been around for a few years, but wasnt manditory until last year in California , they are profected and have had very little problem. The next item to be worked on will be evaporative systems for the fuel system, which will be a big plus for fuel economy due to no fuel escaping from the fuel tank.

[dogbert]

How big is the evaporation issue?

[mneal]

One good thing that came from the cats is they now have a closed loop EFI system now (oxygen sensor). Up until then the fuel mapping was done based on presets and with the ability to obtain A/F ratios from O2 sensors the fuel curve is way better in every regard. (more power, better economy) .

I dunno how the cats are constructed though, more specifically the materials. Are they cast iron or aluminum or what is the internal construction? They gotta be raw water cooled right? Those of us who run in salt water will be sad to buy 2 new cats as compared to the costs of two risers every couple years.

[correll]

The only company to my knowledge to use stainless steel cat. converters is PCM. All others are using automotive style ceramic. The other engine companies have had a lot of problems with their catalyst systems. The current mandates for emmisions California 2008 everyone else 2010. older boats will not be affected unless they start a program of checking emissions as they do in the auto industry.

[chpthril]

How big is the evaporation issue?

Huge. I used to have some info about how much fuel is lost through a missing gas cap on a car, pretty much the same thing on a boat as the the tank vent to the atmosphere.

One good thing that came from the cats is they now have a closed loop EFI system now (oxygen sensor). Up until then the fuel mapping was done based on presets and with the ability to obtain A/F ratios from O2 sensors the fuel curve is way better in every regard. (more power, better economy) .

I dunno how the cats are constructed though, more specifically the materials. Are they cast iron or aluminum or what is the internal construction? They gotta be raw water cooled right? Those of us who run in salt water will be sad to buy 2 new cats as compared to the costs of two risers every couple years.

I dont know how they are cooled. Converters need to be hot in order for the catalyst to work, but excessive heat is something we dont want in the engine bay of a boat. I imagine they do contain Platinum and Palladium, as these are the elements needed to convert Co to C02 I doubt they are using any Rhodium yet for the conversion of NOx.

[zad0030]

Ive got a the indmar ETX/Cat

[balair]

Ive got a the indmar ETX/Cat

you also have a malibu

[zad0030]

you also have a malibu

But the same engine is also used in other boats, Mastercraft, Supra and moomba.

[FIC]

With the vented fuel tanks not only does the fuel evaporate rapidly but the octane falls off at a steady rate. My ski team boat is a 6.0l requireing 93 octane, well it is the least used fuel so it is inconsistent how good it is when I get it from the pump, sometimes the boat runs better then other ,when im pulling a 6 man barefoot run you can here the differance in the sound of the motor at about 5400 rpm.

[dogbert]

When are we gonna get super clean diesel?

[chpthril]

^^^^ When we are ready to buy a boat built like an Outback (entry level) and carries the price tag of a MC :02:

[dogbert]

What a bummer.

[chpthril]

Diesels are great power plants and would certainly be a great alternative to gas in a towboat, except for 2 reasons: Cost of upgrade would kill most boat buyers, and 2, there is no diesel infrastructure for diesel on many lakes. On our lake there is no diesel, so those few with diesel engine in their cruisers, have to call the delivery truck a couple of days in advance and then meet the driver when he arrives. If you boat is in a marine, you have to move it around the dock to get it as close to the truck as possible. it's not cheap to get a special delivery.

[zad0030]

I just read on the Malibu Crew that he swapped out for the new ETX cat converters and his 99 boat is now runner cooler, better and faster.

[jwanck11]

wasnt there a post on here somewhere about a turbo diesel? I thought someone said that it was no good as it was weak initially and when the turbo kicked in all stuff broke loose...

[FIC]

If you are thinking that the diesel will save you on fuel cost , guess again, Down here in fla. I was at our lake while they were testing 2 new correct crafts with 310 hp yanmar diesel , they showed me their chart cause I was testing a 24ve tige in for service, it has the power of a 400hp engine, but the fuel consumption was 8.5 gph , with 260hp diesel it went to 3.5, you would have to own it for a long time to recoupe on the option price, he asked about our tige and was suprised at how low are consumption was as compared to the gas powered correct craft.

[dogbert]

My thought was that you could get away with a smaller engine because of the increase in torque.

[mtnsmith]

This is true, but the 260 hp yanmar that FIC is talking about would run me between 14-16k to have installed and working perfectly. The family that owns the company that is working with CC has talked to me several times about putting a diesel in the tige, they live on the water where we board every week. I finally had him work up a quote just for fun. That was the quote. Mastry Engine Center if any one wants to look at their site. I could rebuild or replace my sbc several times for that cost. I do know a commercial fisherman with over 7400 hours on his 310hp yanmar, but by then I will want a different boat...and that engine installed would be about 20k!

[tlbarrett]

The post describing the stainless steel substructure of the PCM engine indicates that the failures in CAT equipped engines were due to ceramic substructure and that stainless steel may be a proven better substructure. Here is a brief history of marine CAT development.
The NMMA and CARB paid for catalyst durability tests at Southwest Research prior to implementing the CAT requirements. The first test used ceramic substructure and the second test used metallic substructure. The ceramic CATs completed a 480 hr durability test with no failures. The metallic CATs did not complete the tests. While there have been some failures in the marketplace none of them have been a result of the catalyst substructure. The failures have been centered around manifold casting and post CAT sensors. Imagine the number of vehicles on the road equipped with catalytic convertors for the last 20 years and understand that 90% of them use ceramic substructures. This provides GM engineers a huge data base of information in developing marine CAT applications. Stainless steel substructure does not have that kind of history and it would be a stretch to indicate that stainless steel is a better substructure.
The primary concerns in the marine industry comparing ceramic to stainless steel are in the area of shock loading. Here again GM engineers with the 20 year history and data disagree with that school of thought and concern. The area where there is no disagreement is that stainless steel substructure is more expensive.
Sorry for the long post but I thought additional information on the subject may be of interest.
Terry

[FIC]

I like to see the data on those test , vehicles on the road dont have water flowing around or through the cats with a possibllity of other ellements in the water to effect catalyst, or what the catalyst is assemblled on, and or I would like to see a cross section to better understand the desigh and flow.

[balair]

Diesels are great power plants and would certainly be a great alternative to gas in a towboat, except for 2 reasons: Cost of upgrade would kill most boat buyers, and 2, there is no diesel infrastructure for diesel on many lakes. On our lake there is no diesel, so those few with diesel engine in their cruisers, have to call the delivery truck a couple of days in advance and then meet the driver when he arrives. If you boat is in a marine, you have to move it around the dock to get it as close to the truck as possible. it's not cheap to get a special delivery.

another problem with them is that they aren't very high reving so they are not the ideal choice for towsports. They would almost need to put a two speed. There is a wakeboat with a 2 speed already, but it isn't diesel. Notice boats that have diesels are not usually going very fast.

[JSTIII]

Hello everyone. Trey Thurman with PCM here, and I just wanted to speak for a moment concerning this thread. Terry made some good points and I agree that introducing catalyst into a marine environment is a monumental undertaking. As many of you may remember in the 70’s when catalyst was first introduced to the automobile industry there were major problems. To avoid such problems here at PCM we have been in development of our Catanium Clean Emission System for many intense years. We did wait to release it until mandated due to the fact that we wanted to put as much testing time on our system as possible. And yes our Catanium equipped engines are 4 star certified which means they have passed all 480 hour durability tests. As you may have noticed I said the word system earlier, we at PCM through rigorous design and testing released to the world our multiple patent pending Catanium Clean Emission System. We did not just modify an existing manifold to incorporate a catalytic converter, we designed an entire system to ensure the utmost in performance and durability. As it was mentioned we did chose to use a fully stainless steel catalyst substrate. Through our testing we determined that the best substrate choice is the stainless steel catalyst substrate captured within a full exhaust system designed with the forethought of housing and protecting not only the catalyst, but also all the necessary O2 sensors to properly monitor a closed loop system ( by the way not all manufacturers are using O2 sensors, some are using thermo couplers, which only monitor temperature not the true output of emission like O2 sensors do). To speak to the point of stainless steel being more expensive, yes that is true, but surprisingly not by much. The most expensive part of a catalyst substrate is the precious metal wash coat that is applied to the substrate, and this wash coat has to be applied to both ceramic and metallic substrates for them to properly reduce harmful emissions. Terry is also correct in the statement about the automobile industry using mostly ceramic catalyst substrates, but the trend is changing towards metallic. I drive a Chevy truck so I have a ceramic catalyst as well, but my truck has shock absorbers and stabilizers and my truck is absent from water, so what works great in one application may not be the best choice for all. And while I drive a Chevy with a ceramic substrate I aspire to drive the more premium performance cars of the world that have metallic substrates, like Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati, and don’t forget about the motorcycles like Aprilia, Ducati and BMW. At the end of the day we know that we have built the best possible catalyst system for a marine environment. We believe that all our engines are the best in the industry and we consistently receive the awards to back it up. For a closer look at our system please visit www.catanium.com and www.pcmengines.com.

[zad0030]

another problem with them is that they aren't very high reving so they are not the ideal choice for towsports. They would almost need to put a two speed. There is a wakeboat with a 2 speed already, but it isn't diesel. Notice boats that have diesels are not usually going very fast.

Towboats dont want top end, enless your barefooting. Towboats are all about the low end torque and pulling power. Thats why diesels would be ideal for Wakeboard boats.

[balair]

Towboats dont want top end, enless your barefooting. Towboats are all about the low end torque and pulling power. Thats why diesels would be ideal for Wakeboard boats.

agree to disagree

[FIC]

To pcm I appreaciate your spending the time to explain about the cats, and testing , where I take issue in your comments is equating performance with foreign performance cars, for as an american I feel we build the best and that has been proven over and over again, example epic with lexas V8 which couldnt get a skkier out of the water with400hp but no torque, and dont get me wrong you do build a good marine power plant , but I put no value in jd power awards , numbers dont lie you just adjust them to make any company look good, example toyota camary and nissian altima no# 1 JD powers in the same years same class one was no#1 first 120 days of opperation and the other 1st in first 90 days. I do believe you should be proud of your company for it is a very well organized and a pleasure to deal with.

[JSTIII]

I feel that I was misunderstood. I too, an American through and through, am proud of our country and what we produce. I was simply using some well known manufacturers and was not intending to put emphasis on foreign performance. The fact is, that automaker worldwide use metallic substrates, GM, Chrysler, Jeep, and many more. I also respect your opinion on the JD Power awards, but if nothing less, in effort to continue to be the best we always strive to build the best product we can and give the best customer service possible. I appreciate the compliment and we will do what we can to continue to please.

[balair]

To pcm I appreaciate your spending the time to explain about the cats, and testing , where I take issue in your comments is equating performance with foreign performance cars, for as an american I feel we build the best and that has been proven over and over again, example epic with lexas V8 which couldnt get a skkier out of the water with400hp but no torque, and dont get me wrong you do build a good marine power plant , but I put no value in jd power awards , numbers dont lie you just adjust them to make any company look good, example toyota camary and nissian altima no# 1 JD powers in the same years same class one was no#1 first 120 days of opperation and the other 1st in first 90 days. I do believe you should be proud of your company for it is a very well organized and a pleasure to deal with.

When it comes to who builds the best engine it's all about the application. When you need pure bada$$ muscle, it's the American V8 all the way baby :ro:

When it comes needing a fuel efficient engine, I think the Germans have us beat there. I drive a 200hp VW that gets 33 mpg on the highway and would still kick most cars a$$ on the street. They way they do it is with the use of the turbo, something American automakers do not use and I wish they would.

[Tanner]

When it comes needing a fuel efficient engine, I think the Germans have us beat there. I drive a 200hp VW that gets 33 mpg on the highway and would still kick most cars a$$ on the street. They way they do it is with the use of the turbo, something American automakers do not use and I wish they would.


How bout a 7K lb 7XX hp beast on 35's that gets 23mpg on the highway? How's that for american turbo'd muscle that gets good MPG's.

Not only could I roll that little VW off the line... but I could probably run it over and then haul it in the bed after :D :ro: .... hehe... sorry... just had to! :cool: (yes I realize I'm not exactly stock)

[EZ-DZ]

Trey you wrote "I too, an American through and through, am proud of our country and what we produce", but heck son you didn't mention a Corvette Z06 or ZR1 instead you mentioned Ferraris, Astons, BMW, etc...

But the bigger question is if you and PCM are so "American", maybe you can explain to all of us folks why you import and sell FOREIGN-made transmissions by the thousands which you hang on the back of your PCM engines????

Time to start buying American my friend for Americans produce the BEST. If not, there will be no more jobs and no more buyers of Tige boats or PCM engines.

[FIC]

Unfortunately almost anything american built any more is not all american, from the computors to the bearings ,so we just have to live with it. I think its sad for I grew up with all american products in my early days ,but that has passed due to a perceived better value in foreign vehicles, yet I have never not driven any american vehicle Ive owned less than 200,000 miles , and currently have 380,000 on my 1983 dodge van with an engine thats only had a timing chain and gears. My Tige rep makes fun of my van when we haul all of our boat show equipment and pull the boats over to the shows, but hey I tell him maybe somebody will see the van and feel sorry for me and buy a boat. It cant hurt. Well I didnt mean to cause a pissing contest again!

[JSTIII]

FIC is correct in today's times it is almost impossible for all components to be domestic.

As for our gears we have some built both domestic and foreign. I wish that in life we could please all people, but I am sure we can all agree that for the most part that is impossible. We will just continue to try, and try our hardest to please all the customers we can.