Fuel guage

[Tigger]

Does anyone else have problems with their fuel guage? Not just with the sloshing around either. When I fill up, the guage shows full, and it will remain there for an hour or so of use. Then it will sometimes show around 3/4 tank, but will likely show empty. It's usually not a big deal...I just fill up every other use.

Just wondered if y'all were getting semi-accurate readings from your fuel guages...

I took the boat into the dealer after the first couple of outings to get it fixed. He said it was likely sticking and opened it up to work on it. Well, he didn't fix it...and then the dealer folded!

And that brings up another question...where in Houston is a good place to get my Tige serviced? I'm in lower Houston and don't necessarily want to drive to Conroe or Austin... (when are they going to sell Tiges in Houston again?!):confused:

[Matt Garcia]

I have the same problem you are having. I dont pay too much attention either because I fill up every other outing or so. Does anyone have any solutions? Cant help you on the last question, Andrew or Harvey should help you out once they read your thread.

[Banks]

Does anyone know about what the gas milage is like, i know its not a car but like what it would be like cruising down the intercoastal waterway it'd be nice to know how often i would need gas?
thanks

[RZMike]

I too have a problem with my fuel guage. Mine shows full for a long time and then when it does start coming down it drops fast! So fast, that if I don't head for a marina when it starts dropping, I won't make it.

I believe it's a problem with the unit in the fuel tank, but when I took it out I couldn't find anything obviously wrong with it. I was hoping there was an adjustment on the float arm, but no such luck.

It would be nice if we could figure out a solution.

[Tigger]

Yeah, mine scared me the first couple of times out. Now I'm just used to seeing it empty. It still bugs me though.

Mine shows empty most of the time....like I said, it drops fast after just a couple hours of use. I've only run out of gas once...and I should have known better that time!:rolleyes: Luckily we were next to a house, and the guy there just gave us a couple of gallons of gas...wouldn't take money or anything!

[Kyle]

the reason this happens is the gas tank is below the floor board and is is long and shallow. When you give the boat gas it all moves back reading full. Then when you stop it moves foward and reads empty or half etc. There is nothing you can do about it. When it reads empty, there is a lot more gas left. I tried to see how far i could go one day on empty and when i got scared i filled it up. It was at a half of a tank. So i don't wory about it any more. I bring a small gas can with me but have never had to use it after a full day of boarding.

[Banks]

i am guessing it varies year to year, like mine regardless reads less than it has. and reads even less than it has when you are going as opposed to when you are stopped. the first time i filled it up after riding it was reading less than half when i was going. when i pulled it out only had to put 10 gallons in it which is more than half. its a 2003 21i

[Domsz06]

yeah, i have the same problem. The only way you could fix it would be to put a second sensor in it and just use both as readings. The thing I have noticed is when it stopps bobbing around empty i sthill have just over half a tank, and when it really gets to the E I still have lik 8 gallons, so I just gauge accordingly

Dom

[Harvey]

Kyle hit it on the head with the long and shallow tank it will show full when you give the boat gas and empty when you stop. When the boat is sitting in the water still the reading should be right. The motor will burn about 6 gallons an hour so try to use your hour meter also.

[Banks]

thanks

[Shaz]

If we exclude what happens to the guage when we are in motion and concentrate our attention to the real problem being.
My guage has been adjusted a few times at the unit in the fuel tank (a skrew you turn to adjust with the 2004 model). At the moment it reads full all the time and then when the tank is empty it reads about 9/10ths full. My feeling is that the setting is so sensitive that you have to be incredibly accurate with your settings. My next choice would be to set the guage at just under full and then see what happens. All in all this is something that Tige' need to attend to if there are so many of us having problems. As a boat that sells itself! I ca'nt imagine Tige' would be happy to see their boats been towed. Bad advertising if you ask me!

[Shaz]

Tigger I hope the above helps. I can understand your frustration because I'm rowing with the same oar!

[moved2ski]

I am shopping for an inline fuel meter like the flowmaster or standardhorizon. I dont know how well they work with a fuel injected engine. My gauge is usless and I hate to keep my tank full because I want a small wake for skiing. Any help out there.

[Tige M.D.]

I've installed 4 fuel flow meters from Hummingbird. All have worked good and have had only one complaint so far. That one was about educating everyone that uses the boat to reset the meter after refueling. I also recommend leaving the stock fuel gauge in for back up.

[Tip]

How much do those fuel flow meters cost, and how difficult are they to install (2003 22v 5.7 mpi)?

[Domsz06]

are those fuel metes like flow meters for beer and stuff, that monitor how much is going through? I never liked the beer one's, but then again, gas doesn't pour into head like a hot keg of beer does, so maybe they would work pretty good.

Dom

[Tige M.D.]

The flow meters cost around $200. They are very easy to install. If you don't have a spare spot on you gauge panel then you will have to relocate a less neede gauge (clock...).
The systems I installed measured in liters or gallons. I used gallons. They monitor, gallons per hour real time, gallons used since fill up, as long as you reset it at fill up, and total gallons used, not resetable.
Basically it works like a paddle wheel generating a small current of electricity and the rest is magic.

[Tip]

I'm lookinging at the Faria FFM002. The cost is 276. I looked for the Hummingbird but have not found it. Do you have any info on the Hummingbird (like where I could buy it)?

Thanks

Tip

[Tige M.D.]

I will check my inventory on Tuesday. I usually keep them in stock.
Feel free to call me at 909/737-9801 ask for Greg

[Tip]

I'll give you call. Thanks. -Tip

[moved2ski]

I will give you a call also, I have been looking at the Flowscan. I can,t find a humminbird web sight. Because my engine is fuel injected do I need a unit for the return line?

[Tige M.D.]

What engine do you have?

[Tip]

Greg,
Thanks for the info, you were very helpful. Attached is a picture of the Navman F2100, looks very similar to the Faria. I got it online for $153.00.

I'll let you know how it works once I get it installed. -Tip

[moved2ski]

I have a 2002 MPI 315 hp Merc , not the scorpion. I have been looking at the Smartcraft but I think my engine is too old.

[Tip]

I finally got my fuel flow meter installed. It took about 2 hours and works great. It was fairly straight forward to install.

[pup]

Hey Tip. where did you find that for $153.00 ? what is the diameter of the guage? flow meter sounds like a very useful guage.

[Tip]

I found it at www.OnlineMarine.com.

Here is the link:
<<http://www.onlinemarine.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online_superstore/electronics/instruments/navman_f41_fuel.htm?L+scstore+phfz2354ff148014+107 8855561>>

The next cheapest gauge I found was the Faria @ $289.00.

The control head requires a 2" hole for mounting. The gauge is roughly 2.5 inches deep.

The hardest part of the whole installation was hooking up the transducer, that part took me a little over an hour.

[Domsz06]

how accurate are these these flow meters? I know when I had one installed at work to monitor the flow of beer out of the keg it really didn't work that great due to the face of it couldn't measure foam. Now I don't think fuel is going to foam like beer(engine wouldn't run very good;) ) Just wondering. As anyone tried it out aka, full tank, run till empty and see what it said? I think I might want to put one in. Thanks guys.

Dom

[Domsz06]

Tip

It says it works for carburated engines. Since it's inline to the engine it really doesnt matter does it since all it's measuring is fuel usage rate? So as long as entered into the mail line to the engine it would work right? Thanks

Dom

[Tip]

Dom,
Fuel fow meters have been used in the marine and aviation industries for years and are generally very accurate if properly installed and calibrated.
Calibration is done by filling the tank, running it empty and comparing the results. I'll let you know how accurate my gauge is once I get through a couple of tanks.

It's very important to mount the transducer in a vertical position to eliminate the chance of air bubbles getting trapped in the transducer, which could cause incorrect readings.

You have to be careful when using a fuel flow meter designed for carburated engines. Some engines with electronic fuel injection have a return line to the tank, so the fuel kind of circulates. This would cause a single transducer fuel flow meter to be erroronous because not all the fuel going through the transducer is being burned. They make fuel flow meters for these types of systems, but they cost more because it requires two transducers.

The 2003 Mercrusise 5.7 MPI does not have a return line so a single transducer works fine.

If you typically go out for long days and don't have easy access to a marina, a fuel flow meter is the only way to accurately know how much fuel you have left near the end of the day. -Tip

[Tige M.D.]

Tip, sounds like you have this thing nailed. Glad to see it worked out good.
Just try not to watch the gph screen. It'll make you want to sit on the beach all day.

[Tip]

Greg,
Thanks for all your help.
I know what you mean about watch the fuel flow...they should have just put a $ on the gauge!

Here is a picture of the control head mounted in my 22v:

[Tip]

Here is a picture of the transducer installed.

[moved2ski]

I got my Navman in this week as well. It seems to work great. I put the transducer just below the fuel filter.

[Terry Wingerson]

I own a 03 21i which I ran out of fuel on the second outing. After replacing the sending unit in the tank for the third time with the adjustable full/empty limit settings I found that the guage was very jerky. In inspecting the guage I found that the guage needle was dragging on the face of the guage. I removed the guage and drilled a very small hole in the side of the guage and used a jewller's screw driver to pry the needle up off the face of the guage and siliconed the hole shut to prevent moisture from entering the guage and reinstalled.
This took care of all problems and is very accurate now. If you a true reading you do need to be setting due to the tank design.

Good Luck

[Ruune]

I think I'm having the same problem shaz is... where is the sending unit located on the gas tank, and how do I access it? Whats happening is that it reads full all the time. I havent run it down to empty, but I've put 15 gallons in the tank more than once, and the tank still reads full.

[seymoc1]

I'm having the same problem with my fuel gauge as everyone else. I'm going to install a fuel management gauge of some kind (navman, faria, humminbird). I was leaning toward the navman, so I contacted them to verify the 2100 would work on my boat. Here is a snip of our conversation:
----------
Your Request:
I have a 2000 tige 21V with a mercruiser 350MPI 315hp inboard. I would like to install the navman fuel 2100 but want to make sure the navman will work. I noticed in the literature that it supports up to 300hp.

Solution:
That spec is correct. So you do not want to use our fuel computer on
your boat because it won't work correctly. The HP rating is too high.

NavmanUSA
-----------

What is everyone's thought or opinions on this? My second choice is the Faria because I can't find the Humminbird anywhere. The best price I've found on the Faria is $212.


Thanks.

Chris

[Tip]

I installed a Navman 2100 in my 03 22v, 350mpi and it's working great.

However, the manufacturer always knows best. If they said no, don't get the Navman.

When I researching fuel flow meters I was a little puzzled when I read that limitation on horse power, mainly because I could not figure out how the fuel meter would know what the hp rating of the engine would be? Once I read that the Navman could handle fuel flow rates up to 35 gal per hour I figured it would work fine in my boat. The highest I've seen on my 22v is 12 gal per hour (doing 35mph). My boat burns .5 gal per hour at idle and 7- 7.5 hour towing a board.

Just remember, no matter what fuel flow meter you get, if you don't know how much fuel you start with, you won't know when you'll run out. I learned this the hardway! -Tip

[seymoc1]

Tip, That's what I thought too. If the navman is rated up to 35 gal/hr it should handle anything I can throw at it with my motor. Shawn at Navman said his concern was over 300hp could create a lean condition.


Hey Tige M.D. What are the specs on the Humminbird? Do you agree that the meters should be based on flow rate and not horsepower?


--chris

[Tip]

Chris,
I have not noticed any difference in the way my engine runs with the meter installed. However, I am not an internal combustion engine expert by any means.

I'll pull the plugs this weekend and take a look at them. Then I'll put some hours on the boat and re-inspect the plugs. I think I heard somewhere that a lean running engine will leave a whitish residue on the plugs.

I guess I'm being way too pragmatic in my approach to this meter. I'm with you Chris, what does Greg (TigeMD) think? -Tip

[moved2ski]

I have a 315 hp in my 2001 21 I. My navman 2100 has been in for one month. It works fine. In the speck sheet on the web sight it said limited to 300 hp. When I read the sheet it was shiped with it stated 400 HP or 35 ghp. I put the transponder 2 inches under the big fuel filter after not finding a good place near the tank.

[Tip]

I finished the calibration check on mine today. Last week I filled the tank all the way to the top (fuel almost running out) When filled up the tank today it took 14.8 gallons. The Navman said I had burned 15 gallons, that's close enough for me.

This fuel flow meter is the ticket. Since I've had it I have figured out that my fuel gauge does not begin to fall below full until I have burned 18 gallons (half a tank)! When the fuel gauge indicates 1/2 I only have about 7 gallons of fuel remaining. It scares me to think how many times I was driving around with a 1/4 tank of gas thinking I had 10 gallons when really I only had 3-4 gallons in the tank.

-Tip

[billspin]

Has anyone installed the Navman 2100 Fuel Flow meter on a 2004 22i with the Marine Power 335 HP engine?

[JASON739]

Tigger,

The factory had poor quality senders for some time. They did send me two new ones that had external floats that did not work any better. Finally the third sender had an internal float and works well. I will check this weekend to see if there is a part #. I have the old ones on my shelf so I can for sure give you the one you don't want. Keep in mind the location of the sender i.e. the 20i is in the passenger side corner, therefore when weight is on that side the reading is closer to full.
p.s. easy to change

[seymoc1]

Originally posted by Tip
Here is a picture of the transducer installed.

Hey Tip.

Can you elaborate a little more about where exactly your transducer is located? I'm about to install a flow meter and I'm trying to find the best place to cut the fuel line. Did you mount it after the filter/water seperator?

The hose I'm looking to cut is the one that runs to the fuel rail. It has the metal connectors on both ends but I want to make sure I'm not cutting a hose that shouldn't be cut.

I appreciate your time.

--chris

[Tip]

Chris,
I put the flow sensor on the rear port side of the engine. The rubber fuel line enters a metal block that's hooked to some kind of filter. I cut the rubber fuel line about 3" below where the rubber fuel line hooks to the metal block/filter. The instructions for the fuel flow meter recommended installing the fuel flow sensor in a vertical position to minimize the effect of bubbles. This was the only place I could find where the fuel line was vertical.

Hope this helps.

[Hoots]

"Welcome to our support group. Please introduce yourself."

"Hello. My name is Tommy and I don't know how much fuel I have in my boat."

This is so frustrating shopping for a $200 fuel flow meter to compensate for the inop gage on my $40K boat. My 04 22V has read "Full" through three tanks of fuel. Has anyone had a satisfactory answer or fix from their dealer or the factory?

Thanks everyone for the fuel meter info. I'm sold and I'll let you know how mine goes too.

[billspin]

Hello to all who have a fuel gauge problem knowing how much gas is still in the tank. I have installed the Navman 2100 Fuel Flow meter on my 2004 22i. Out of the box with no calibration it was within 4/10 of a gallon accurate. There is a way to calibrate it and it should be even more accurate. It has proven to be a very good investment and addition to the best boat I have ever owned.

[JASON739]

HOOTS,

IT IS PROBABLY JUST THE SENDER. MINE WORKED TO ABOUT HALF A TANK AND THEN WENT TO E. THE FACTORY SENT ME A NEW ONE THAT WAS THE SAME STYLE WITH THE SAME RESULT A COUPLE OF TIMES, BUT THE THIRD ONE WAS A TOTALLY NEW STYLE AND IT HAS WORKED VERY WELL. MY FRIEND HAS AN '04 22I THAT HAS THE SAME PROBLEM. IF HE GETS IT FIXED I WILL LET YOU KNOW THE RESULT, BUT I THINK HE IS JUST GOING TO SELL IT. IT SHOULDN'T BE NECESSARY TO BUY A FLOW METER. THE GUAGE WILL WORK.

[seymoc1]

Thanks Tip for the quick response.

I've been all over my motor trying to find the best place to install this fuel flow transducer. And as luck would have it I have another question for the experts out there. Can I cut the fuel line that runs from the Mercruiser Cool Fuel system to the fuel rail? I have pictures available that I can upload if anyone needs to see what I'm talking about. If this works I have a great place to install in the vertical position. My engine is a 2000 Mercruiser MPI. The cool fuel system is located on the starboard side of the engine just behind and below the alternator with an insulated fuel line running up to the fuel rail.

Any help is greatly appreciated!


Thanks,

Chris

[moved2ski]

I put mine about 2 inches below the water seporation filter. I put a small metal in line fuel filter about 2 inches in fornt of that. I had to use a zip tie to hold it out of the way so the engine cover would not catch on it when I close it.

[JASON739]

I can't believe all of you just accept that your fuel guage doesn't work. You shouldn't even have to consider a flow meter as an option. The sender can be fixed and the guage is very accurate.

[moved2ski]

Jason, The factory has sent me 4 diffrent senders. The dealer put in 2 of them and to speed things up I put in two of them. I am sick of tearing my floor out to replace them. The tank is so shallow the float has very littel room to move and even moving it with your hand outside of the tank you see 1/4 tank diffrence with 1 inch of movement. Other than this I love my boat.

[seymoc1]

what kind of filter did you guys use? I've tried to find one that meets the 30 micron filtration specs from Faria. But I can't seem to get any help from my local parts shop. Just curious what you used.


Thanks,

Chris

[moved2ski]

I just used one of those metal inline filters from Auto Zone, The kind we used on old" 1970's" cars. Just ask for one to fit a 3/8 inch fuel line. They cost about $3.00. Make sure it is metal, they also make some see through plastic ones. You will need 2 small hose clamps.

[JASON739]

Moved,

The last sender I installed was not like the others before. This one has been in the boat now for a year and is as acurate as any auto. Trust me, I have tested it to the point of drifting into the gas pumps at the marina. I will post a part # for the sender this weekend.
Also, I love my boat as well, but she is tougher to maintain than the girls that are in it on the weekends.

[roljs]

Hi Jason,

Any news on the part number for the sender that does work? I'm eager to fix my fuel gauge problem, but I don't want to go through getting another sender that does not work (I know you've been through that already...)

Regards,

Rolando.

[JASON739]

Sorry for the delay. The sender that works does'nt have a part # on the top. However, it looks completely different. The exposed part of the sender is about 1/2" thick charcoal color plastic with positive and negative post exposed and marked. Also shows 240/33 ohms at connections. Since installing this sender my guage has been perfect....other than I wish it would slow down now that gas is $2.25 on the water.

Part #s that DO NOT work are. FMT 1095-5.5 0138 and FMT 1095-5 0131
each of these are just thin steel top with solid wired positive and a ground post. I'm sure the 5.5 and 5 in the different part #'s above refer to the different lengths of the senders. That is the only difference between these two and neither worked.
Check on your gas tank next to the sender and you will find the tank Mfg. #s and this will help the guys at Tige get you the correct sender.

[Tige M.D.]

the sending unit you are talking about is called a centroid sender. it does work better but it is still not 100% accurate.

[Tige M.D.]

Faria is shipping me a fuel flow transdeucer for the commander gauge. I am going to install it in a new boat and test it.

For all of you that have this problem, please be patient. I don't want to claim to have a fix for this and it turn out to be a bigger problem. I am going to test this around the middle of Sept for 10 days and will let you know the results.

[Hoots]

you rock. thanks for looking out for the group.

[Tige M.D.]

got the transdeucer today just like harvey promised. going to instal it this week. looks pretty easy.

[Tige M.D.]

o.k. looks like in order to have fuel flow capabilities you will loose your ambient air and water temp. i guess it will be a decision each of you will have to make.
in order to change this it will require a new gauge also.

[Tip]

I feel okay about installing the Navman now.

Thanks for info Greg.

[smendez]

Tige MD:

I've been checking with my dealer and he arrived to the same conclusion as you have. However, he said that I might be able to replace the fuel gauge (which is not that useful anyway) with a gauge for a fuel flow meter.

What are your thoughts on this?

Saulo

[Tige M.D.]

i don't think that is such a hot idea. if someone fills the tank without reseting the flow meter then you will have no clue as to how much gas is in the tank. the fuel gauge may not be perfect but it does help.

maybe tip can comment on this, he has had his flow meter all summer? what do you think tip?

[Tip]

Greg,
That's great point, I would not replace my fuel gauge. I've had the Navman 2100 installed since the beginning of summer and it's never been off by more than a 1/2 gallon. However, there have been a couple of times when I forgot to reset the fuel flow meter when I filled up so having the regular fuel gauge is still useful.

Tip

[smendez]

What you guys are saying makes sense.

This has been quite a hot topic. I sure hope the folks in Abilene are paying attention to this. I don't expect them to do anything with boats they have already sold, but I would like to know that they're thinking about this for their 2005 line up ready to come out!

In the meantime - Matt - How about purchasing a bunch of these flow meters and selling them on the website along with the t-shirts, etc ;)

[Matt Garcia]

Originally posted by smendez
In the meantime - Matt - How about purchasing a bunch of these flow meters and selling them on the website along with the t-shirts, etc ;)

Hey not a bad idea!

[Tequilasun]

On our 2005, the fuel gauge seems to work better than it did on our 2003, or any of the others we have ridden in. It gives semi accurate readings only after we have stopped and are sitting level for a minute or so.

I am really disapointed to hear that if I install the fuel flow meter that I will loose my air and water temp.

[poohpotta]

Forget the air/water temp gauge, the fuel flow meter is of much more value! I always check lake and weather conditions before heading out anyhow.

Thanks Tige M.D., your a good man! :)

[Tip]

I like having the air and water temp. If you need a fuel flow meter install a Navman and you don't have to give up anything.

[Tige M.D.]

leaving to bass lake today, faria dropped the ball on getting me the new gauge. tige did send a different fuel sender to try. going to install at the ramp tomorrow. tige is going to try to ship the gauge to me at the lake.
see you in 10 days.

[dogbert]

Does anyone know if they make a combination fuel guage/fuel flow meter?

[Tige M.D.]

i'm back:(
faria has still not returned our calls (a--holes)
the fuel sender i got was too long by about 1/2" and the original one cracked when removing it. needless to say i was pretty pissed. how do i cover a 2" hole in the top of a fuel tank? well after about an hour of fabricating i figured it out. only thing was, i had NO fuel gauge the entire trip.
i guess now i have walked in ya'lls shoes. not much fun.

[Tige M.D.]

finally got the fuel flow meter kit in my hand:)

we installed it in our salesmans personal boat yesterday. he has a 05' 22v with the gm vortec 340hp. i will post pictures when we finish the boat.

[smendez]

U Da man

U Da Dr.

[BennettTaylor]

I love my Tige....don't get me wrong, but, seems like everyones fuel gauges don't work right. I have owned other boats before and had ZERO problems w/ my fuel gauges. Mine is stuck on full..... I hope they read these threads and try to figure out something better. On such an expensive boat, i kinda expect the gas gauge to work. I saw a reply from the factory about "all" boat fuel gauges are not reliable or accurate, but thats not true. I have never had one that wasn't. I hope in their pursuit of perfection, they address this. The tige line is too high quality to let something petty like this continue..

Bennett

2000 Tige 2300V Limited - Black Scorpion

[Tige M.D.]

like i have said many times, the fuel gauge does work and it works properly. it is the fuel tank location and shape that are the cause of this. tige is actively trying to fix this but i don't think there will be anything but a flow meter for the boats that are out on the water.:(

[hammlfam]

Tige M.D.,

Is Tige paying for these? I have had 2 new sensors put in my boat and of course they don't work. I have sent my Tige dealer(Pearsons in Monticello IN) to this site to see the other problems. The boat is in storage at there place and one of the winter fix items is the fuel gauge. Is Tige stepping up with a fuel flow meter to fix there problem?

Thanks
Jeff

[BennettTaylor]

I realize the gauge works fine, but rather the problem is the sender. I pulled the wires on mine and shorted the 12v to the gauge input, and it went from empty to pegged full. I knew then it was not the gauge. When I said the gauge, i really meant the system as a whole. I assume that my sender is stuck completely up or shorted somewhere at the sender, but getting to it is another story. I know Tige doesn't make the sending unit, etc.... but it is there name on the boat. Again, I hate stupid little things that tarnish an otherwise awesome craft. I hope they look hard at this area when designing in a new part or vendor.

Bennett Taylor
2000 Tige 2300V Limited - Black Scorpion

[Tige M.D.]

i really can't say if tige is going to pay for these flow meters. i am personally testing different systems on my own time with my own money on privately owned tige's. i do report my fidings back to harvey and andrew and they pass it along to their r&d people. from there, who knows what happens.

is tige going to pay for this? i'd say, talk to your dealer. this way it can be handled on a case by case basis.

[Hoots]

I just found the NavMan 2100 fuel flow meter (mentioned previously) online for 129.99 at BoatersWorld.com (free shipping too). That's $20 cheaper than I've seen it anywhere else. Anyway, I ordered it and will install it when it shows up. I don't plan on installing the gauge in the dash because I don't want to replace any existing gauges or drill any new holes. I think I will mount it on a bracket inside the aft port storage near the battery switch (on the same side of the boat as the fuel filler port). I figure having it near the battery switch and fuel port will remind me to reset it everytime I fill up. Plus, that's where I keep the ski vests so it will be convenient enough to check between sets. Any thoughts on this plan from anyone? Thanks.

Tom

TigeMD, please post your shots when you can along with any tips. Thanks!

[Tip]

That's a good price, I paid $149 for mine last year.

-Tip

[Tige M.D.]

i think it is a great idea mounting it else where in the boat. it's not like you have to monitor it like a oil or temp gauge. CAUTION! since you are going to be mounting it near a fueling point on the boat, make absolutley sure all your connections are solid and sealed. you can have no chance of an exposed spark. BOOOOOMMMMMM:eek:

[Hoots]

Yeah, but aren't violent explosions covered under warranty? Just kidding, good advice.

Do you think I could use the storage courtesy light wiring as a source of power for the gauge?

[Hoots]

Change of plan. I couldn't find a decent place in the storage area to mount the gauge, mostly because the gauge requires about 4" of depth. I caved and just installed it where the PP gauge would go if I had been smart enough to order it with the boat. Anyway, I'm pleased with the gauge install now I just have to do the transducer. I think it needs to go on the fuel line as it comes up vertically from the bilge area at the very back left corner of the engine assembly (if you were looking at it from the swim deck (22V)). Any feedback? Thanks!

[Tip]

Make sure you put some rags under the fuel line before you remove it, I was surprised at how much gas came out when I disconnected the fuel line.

I have the millienium dash with pp so mounting on the dash was not an option. I mounted my Indicator under the power lever just below the remote for the stereo. This allows me to monitor the fuel flow rate (usually around 6.5-7 gallons per hour) but not have it my face reminding me how much money the fuel burn is costing me!

-Tip

[Hoots]

I finished the install this morning and took it out on the water to check it out. Works as advertised and not terribly difficult to install. Here's some pics. The clear plastic tubing is just to prevent cable chafing where it runs against some fiberglass edges.

[Hoots]

eng comp

[Hoots]

dash

[Tip]

Looks good. I was a little nervous about drilling a two inch hole but it worked out nicely.

Tip

[GIZMO]

Anyone have a transduser fail, mine froze up completely after the first time out. New one is on the way, hope its just a fluke.

[Hoots]

Just a heads-up...mine came from the factory set on "liters", be sure to check your settings and adjust to US gallons. 38 liters of fuel doesn't last very long.

[GIZMO]

Good point. I know these boats suck the gas but that would be rediculous

[Tip]

Mine was the same, I almost died when I saw what I thought was a burn rate of 18 gal/hr.

[Tige M.D.]

gizmo, did you install a filter before the transdeucer?

[GIZMO]

I installed the transducer in the same location as hoots, My 20v has a large fuel filter mounted on the stringer just after the tank before the transducer, should I install another fuel filter?

[Hoots]

I think I have the same factory filter about 10" from the tank mounted on a stringer. I did not add an additional filter. MD, any thoughts?

[moved2ski]

I learned the hard way that an extra filter befor the transducer is needed. I could not find a place after my regular filter to place it. Mine froze up and I tryed eveything to clean it out. Navman sent me a new one and I then added the filter and have had no problems. I used 12.4 gal of fuel yeasterday.

[GIZMO]

I picked up 3/8" fuel fuel filter from napa and will install it with the new transducer, it cant hurt.

[Tige M.D.]

remember, these filters are a much smaller micron count than the water/fuel filter on the engine. they will clog up sooner . if you have any fuel starvation, vapor lock, or fuel pump problems you have neglected to change that filter. you should change it at least once a season. worst case, you can shake the junk out of it and re-use it till you can buy a new one.

[Hoots]

What filtration level are the added filters you are using? 10 micron?

[Tige M.D.]

we think it is 10. the filters we have in stock don't have it printed any where. my lead tech says he remembers seeing it on one of the filters.

[Original Wing Nut]

I have a 24V 2005 and have had my first experience with the gauge not being any where near accurate when the boat sits at rest. I posted that experience on another thread. My question is if these gizmos are $150 bucks or so, why not include it as an option and charge the fools like me out there $300. I know I would be alot happier right now had my salesman said the gauges aren't accurate do want to add a fuel flow meter, I would have said yes inclued it on the list of all the other stuff. I don't remember how much I spent for a little table, plastic wind screen, shower, or any of the other stuff that is real nice when it is serving it's intended purpose. Also Tige' has a problem, they should fix it! Customer service is everyting and on this issue they haven't got it.

[Tige M.D.]

do your buddies with other brands of ski boats have accurate fuel gauges? if so, maybe somebody in texas should take note of this.

i dream of the day when i don't have to hear/read about fuel gauge issues. they are my nemesis.

[canucktige]

Original Wing Nut:

I know you're pissed right now because of your first trip experience. I just picked up our new 22i and was on the water for the first time last week. We've in the process of breaking her in and trying to get the first 10 hours on her before the water is warm enough to board in.

I don't think that the fuel guage problems are a Tige specific problem. Our previous boat was a Campion 18 foot I/O and the fuel gauge on her was useless as well. The main problem is that unlike cars, boats do not travel on a vertical plane so the gas will slip back and forth depending on how fast you're going and whether the boat is trimmed up or down. On our old boat we could go from 1/2 to empty in a very short time and it was only a V6.

I do agree with you that Tige should either offer a fuel flow meter option or install it as a standard item (this would certainly differentiate it from the other manufactures). The increased cost would be mininal.

I looked on the Ferria (sp?) guage manual and it indicated that it already has an input for a fuel meter option. I am going to contact my dealer and have it installed. I believe that you can set an alarm so that it will warm you when you've gone thru a preset amount of fuel ... of couse you have to remember to reset the meter everytime you fill up.

I also try to manually figure out what the max burn rate is and use the 1/3 rule .... 1/3 out, 1/3 back, 1/3 reserve.

Tige MD .... if fuel gauges as such an issue then why the hell doesn't Tige or another other boat manufacturers do something about it. It's not like these are inexpensive toys or that boat purchasers are going to grind out a few more bucks. I mean most people who can afford these toys can probably spend a couple of hundred bucks more on a fuel meter. I think the whole industry is missing something here if nearly every owner is complaining.

[smendez]

Canucktige:

You can't just add the fuel meter option to your current gauges without giving something else up.

Check Page 5 of this very same thread and you'll see why.

Saulo

[Gardyloo03]

If you have perfect pass you dont lose anything, there is an option on it for air and water temp. So you just run the fuel flow on the faria guage and air and water on the perfect pass gauge. Atleast so ive been told.

[canuck]

smendez:

I have a 2005 22i and in the Faria manuals it specifically refers to the "fuel management" options. It will display -

Fuel used
Total fuel used
Fuel remaining

and it is displayed in the LCD as part of the engine hours display.

You toggle thru the engine hours into the fuel management display.

You do not lose any of the water or air temp displays.

On page 12 of the manual it show the order of the display as:

Water Temp
Ambient Air Temp
Fuel Level
Engine Hours

It requires the Harness HN0354 as well as a Fuel Flow Transducer.

I certainly hope that this is a new option in the 2005 Faria guages.

The manual reference is IS0137.

Tige MD can you shed any light on this. I'm going to try and order it from my dealer this week. I have a feeling it's going to cost major $$$$'s.

[smendez]

Canuck:

Call Faria at 860-848-9271 directly and probe them.

I was told that I couldn't do it on my 2003 gauges, even though I found the same references you mention in the manual. Maybe they have changed something since.

Keep us posted, I'd be very interested in finding out about this.

Saulo

[xpjim1]

My manual reference is ISO 128 dated 8/04. On page 12 it states fuel level based on level sender. This is not part of the fuel management which requires the transducer. I cannot find ISO 137 on the Faria website

[canucktige]

Here is hopefully the correct information on Faria instruments:

You can get a meter with Tach / Fuel flow / Air&water temp / Hr meter - it does not come in a style that matches the Tige guages. As the very helpful Faria rep said "it's not even remotely close in style".

You can get a meter with Tach / Fuel flow / Hr meter (TJ1008) - again it does not match the existing Tige guages but is a lot closer in style with the main difference being the bezel (sp?).

Our existing meter is not capable of displaying anything other than Tach / Air&water temp / Hr meter.

They do have a separate 2" guage that matches our Tige instruments with the fuel flow information. The MSRP is US$240 including the fuel flow transducer.

I was also advised that Faria is working with Indmar, PCM and I think Marine Power to produce a set of instruments that relay information directly from the Engine Management System via a direct plug into the engine. This would be identical to what is available in even the cheapest automobiles and would offer complete engine diagnosis as well as the fuel flow information we are craving.

If you wanted to spend the $$$'s you could upgrade all of your instruments to this new system. It would involve changing all of your guages but the install would be very simple as the instruments all daisy chain back into the ECM.

The rep said it would not be available to some in the next model year but more likely in the next two years.

I think that I am going to try and install the separate fuel flow meter into my boat for now.

[TeamAllen]

Could this be solution to the fuel gauge problem? I found this post (http://www.wakesiderides.com/viewArticle.php?id=305) at Wakesiderides.com. I hope this helps! It also shows other boat manufacturers have the same problem.

[jciscott]

mine hangs around full for 2 hours then dives like Greg Luganis (sp?)

I use 4.5 - 5.5 GPH all the time, skiing, boarding , tubing, whatever,,,,, so I go by the hour meter, 6 hours is time for gas.......

[JASON739]

Harvey, you know there is a better answer.
M.D., way to get after that possible fuel flow meter sale.

Unless there has been a change in the "I" models the tank sits across the back of the boat under the storage compartment. The sending unit is passenger side. The only time there is a variance is during a turn or a pretty major list to either side. After installing the proper unit mine has worked very well. Believe me, I am the king of drifting to the pump.
None of the units sent to me had the external float arm. I will look through all my post regarding this issue and cross check part numbers and such again.
Bottom line is your guage will work very well with the proper sender/tank setup.

[dogbert]

That's pretty much what the post on wakesiderides said as well, except they were talking about Malibu boats. This ought to be a simple problem for Tige to prevent in the future because it appears to affect certain year model boats. Most likely, there's been a change in a supplier or the supplier changed the product. It really sounds like the tank/sender setup began having problems in certain year model boats. Tige should go and figure out what's different between the set-ups so that they can change it going forward. Obviously, adding a fuel flow meter as standard equipment would be a better option.

Anybody from Tige Product Management reading this? :)

[b1az]

mine always shows full. i have ran out of fuel before because of it

[Tige M.D.]

i can't believe this thread is still going:eek:

it's taking on a life of it's own.

[dogbert]

We're going for the record...thanks for helping us out :D :D

[smendez]

8 pages long and guess what - People are still running out of gas on the water.

My buddy just bought a 2005 22v and guess what happened to him on his third trip out?

I was told by Mark - the traveling rep from Tige that this issue has been fixed on all 2006 boats.

So - all of you 2006 boat owners out there. Care to give any feedback? How well does your gas gauge work?

[David Baker]

I've reverted to a low tech approach for my 2004. I marked a wooden dowel (full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4) to use as a fuel tank dip stick. I check it periodically when I know I'm lower than the gauge is telling me. I've also had 1/4 tank (12 gallons) when the gauge said I was empty, adding time on the water versus leaving based on the gauge.

[kskjbuzz]

This is not the longest thread..................that would be the one on have you seen the new boat. It babels on about oh...........14 PAGES!!! And there are no pictures to look at.

[Tequilasun]

Hey, My fuel gauge just started working this weekend!! I have not done a thing to it, but it was dead on accurate all weekend. I guess cursing at it might have helped. Not that I'm gonna trust it ever, just thought it was weird that it would suddenly be so accurate....

[dogbert]

The guys at the Ski Dock told me that whenever they replace a sender, you have to run at least 4 tanks of gas through the boat before it will begin to register accurately. Your experience definitely indicates that whatever sender mechanism they are using, while more accurate than what I have, definitely has problems getting "stuck".

[rushin]

David Baker-Do you have a 22v? Does the dowel go into the filler through the hose?

[David Baker]

22i, filler neck is a straight pipe to tank

[rushin]

I have a 22i, how long is the dowel and where are the increments?

[David Baker]

The dowel is 4 feet long. My 2004 22ir tank is 9 inches deep (excluding filler pipe) so 2.25 inches per quarter tank.

[rushin]

I tried this with the dowel this weekend, I knew that fuel level indication was messed up and after trying this I know it is really messed up. The gauge was reading about an 1/8 of a tank and the dowel indicated about a 1/3. After riding a while and seeing the gauge sit on empty the dowel indicated a 1/4 tank.

[chpthril]

I have a 2006 22ve just of the showroom floor. on my 2nd trip out, the gauge read full intil it drop to 1/2. within about 1 hour or so, it dropped to 1/4. At this point, it was time to return to the ramp. 15 minutes down river, i slowed to go under a bridge and the needle was below 'E'. My gut said I had fuel left, but at 6:30 PM, sun setting, and no marinas open, i could not push on and chance running out before i got to my ramp. we tied up at a resturant nearby. My son walked a 1/4 mile to a gas station and bought a gas can and 4 gals. gas. we put in the 4 gals. and the needle returned to 1/2 tank (go figure). this is my third boat, so i understand that the fuel level changes from idle to on-plane.

I am going out tomarrow night, i plan to fill up to see how much fuel was left in the tank and how much was used on the 2 short trips out.

I hope Tige can come up with a 'real fix'. I will be taking the boat in next week for service and will report back the progress.

other than this minor issue, we love the boat and would tall anyone in the hunt for a new one to buy a Tige!!!!!!!!!!!

[dogbert]

Congrats on the new boat. There are a number of threads on this topic here and on other sites. The only way you'll ever get car-like accuracy is with a fuel flow meter. I think add this to most newer boats. I'd ask about that.

[ghollow]

Boat tank guages are just not that accurate due to the way they are built. The best way to get a reading is to have the boat at idle and level in the water. The guage operates on a float and if the boat is leaning one way or the other you do not get an accurate reading. The fuel flow meters are definitely more accurate. ( I do not have one) They can give you problems also. I had to tow a guy in last summer who was out of gas and his flow meter said he still had 5 gallons in the tank. You have to make sure they are calibrated properly.
I think the best way to judge your fuel is to get to know your boat and figure out how much fuel you are burning per hour.

[Ruune]

Originally posted by ghollow
Boat tank guages are just not that accurate due to the way they are built.

I beg to differ. Mastercraft uses a technique similar to the way a car's fuel level indicator works- it takes a running average.

[gman]

smendez, if the issue was fixed on the 2006 tige boats is tige planning to do a recall and at least fix the boats that are still under warranty?

[Ruune]

I seriously doubt it... manufacturers only do recalls in the case of a safety issue- i.e. if there was a short in the electronics going to the fuel sending unit that could cause a fire (EXAMPLE ONLY).

Doing a recall is the legal equivalent of admitting theres a problem, and has ramifications of its own.

[Tige M.D.]

2 years 2 months and counting...

I think Tige should just supply you all with a wood stick pre-cut to fit your boat.:D

[dogbert]

Originally posted by Tige M.D.
I think Tige should just supply you all with a wood stick pre-cut to fit your boat.:D

What would we complain and argue about? I suppose we'd be complaining about the inaccuracy of the marks on the wood :D

[kskjbuzz]

Well said. People will always have somthing to complain about. Just learn how to read your boat and you won't run out. Don't try and push it just because your in a hurry, fill the damn boat up.:D

[JASON739]

Its nothing more than a poor sender. Tige sent two different models to me. The second one has worked perfectly for 2 years now. Accurate from full to empty.

The stick may be too technical for the tige R&D.

[whitlock87]

I what to know who actually tries to use all the gas in the tank?
Do you drive your car untill the gage is below E. (I never let it get below ¼)

On an early post some one said that I guy ran his boat down to 5 gallons and the boat died.
On my boat it would take at least 3 gallons just to get the bottom of the tank wet.
(My tank is about 24”w X 48”l X 4”h)
Why would I what to get that close to sucking air?
:confused:

[Wake Havasu]

May the fuel guage on Charlie Pigeon's plane be as accurate as the one on my 2006 24ve.

That will fix the problem.

[rushin]

May the fuel guage on Charlie Pigeon's plane be as accurate as the one on my 2006 24ve.



That's funny:D

[Tige M.D.]

Originally posted by Wake Havasu
May the fuel guage on Charlie Pigeon's plane be as accurate as the one on my 2006 24ve.

That will fix the problem.

:eek:

[Tequilasun]

Originally posted by Wake Havasu
May the fuel guage on Charlie Pigeon's plane be as accurate as the one on my 2006 24ve.

That will fix the problem.

WOW!

[dougofkc]

Tige M.D. Does the 03 PCM 330 Excaliber have a return fuel line I should be concerned with or will the Fuel Flow systems discussed here work like a champ? Also please clarify filter size recomendations for inline fuel filters before flow system. THANKS A BUNCH! Im looking forward to accurate gas reading in 07.

BTW I like the much earlier suggestion of reading in dollars per hour instead of gallons. This would make for easier gas bill discussions at the end of sessions. Got Ga$?

[Matt Garcia]

Speaking of fuel gauges and fuel flow meters, my dealer told me that SpeedSet on Tiges have the fuel flow meter readout. Since its tied in to the ECM it will tell you how much GPH is used.

I asked why the dont have the option to display it and his reply was "Most people would rather not know how much money/fuel is being consumed." :)

[chpthril]

On the 06's (from what I understand) the Fiara gauges are flow meter ready, all you have to do is install the transducer (sensor) into the fuel line and plug unto the back of the gauge and "ta da"

[zany]

Originally posted by chpthril
On the 06's (from what I understand) the Fiara gauges are flow meter ready, all you have to do is install the transducer (sensor) into the fuel line and plug unto the back of the gauge and "ta da"

Has anyone done this? does it work?
Where can I get a tranducer?

[chpthril]

It's on my list of upgrades. My 'used to be dealer' gave me a web site, but they didn't show a transducer, just a kit w/ gauge. Maybe Lee, or Dom @ FIC might chime in with where to get it.

[spharis]

The Faria fuel transducers look just like/are the navmans. Tranducers are not usually brand specific. They have a 3 wire connection.
http://www.starmarinedepot.com/Navman+2277R+Single+Engine+Fuel+Sensor.html

What is the model number of the Faria instrument you have that can accept this transducer.

[chpthril]

I have the Commander series (don't know model #)

[spharis]

Assumin you have a 4" guage (you will have two 4-pin plugs) and not the larger 5" (two 6-pin) one, here is what you need....this is for the tach....you can see where it has the fuel level already there.
Here is the commander sales sheet.....it supports fuel flow funtions in the tach.
http://faria-instruments.com/site_manuals/Commander2.pdf

Do you know if you already have a 4 pin, and just need to add the other wires?

http://faria-instruments.com/site_manuals/HN0354.pdf

If you already have the plug, then you should be able to insert the pins and wires to make the connection. If you do not have this plug, I would call Faria and see if you can order that plug harness.

It also looks like you Commander guys have this plug in the tach too.
http://faria-instruments.com/site_manuals/HN0354.pdf

That is the plug for the tach.....so if you look at the back of the commander tach, you should have an open port to allow for the fuel flow harness to plug in. If thats the case, order that harness from Faria (just call) and get the Navman fuel flow if it is cheaper elsewhere.

This is the manual for your commander tach.
http://faria-instruments.com/site_manuals/IS0128E.pdf
notice the drawings on page 2....one plug is vertical, and the other horizontal.....you need a harness to go into the large hole, the vertical one.

One more very important thing.....You will lose your air/water temp to get the fuel flow.....jsut part of the pain for the gain I guess.

Since you already have the plug if you have the air/water temp, you could just cut the leads for the other sensors, and wire in the fuel transducers.


I fixed the links

[chpthril]

Here is what I just got back from Faria (email)

The part you need is our p/n SN0019 (the fuel flow transducer which
needs to be installed in the actual fuel line). You can purchase this
part directly through West Marine special orders at 1-800-538-0775.

Regards,
Jessica
Jessica Goins
T.G.Faria Corporation
Faria Marine Sales
385 Norwich-New London Tpke.
Uncasville, CT 06382
Main Phone: 860-848-9271, extension 1217
Direct Line: 860-885-2082
Fax: 860-848-2704

[spharis]

You will also need a 4-pin harness (assuming 4" instrument), or you will need to splice yours from your air/temp sensors (you must diconnect these accoring to the wiring schema). My fuel transducer did not have a harness plug.

This is coming from Faria's manuals.

This is the transducer....you might call marine west, but I am sure it is the same.
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/124478/0/0/fuel%20trandsducer/All_2/mode+matchallpartial/0/0

and from shipstore
http://www.shipstore.com/SS/HTML/FAR/FARSN0019.html

Faria does not make transducers....they use airmar for the depth, speed, and temp; and I guess navman for flow, I cannot find another manf of 3/8" flow.

Originally posted by Harvey
Faria does offer a fuel flow transducer that will work with the gauge. Part number SN0019. Tige is in the process of testing the unit and it may become an option for later models.

a quote from Lee
Originally posted by lee
You will need two parts to make it work, Sender Unit - Faria Part Number SN0019, Wiring Harness - Faria Part Number HN0354.

And here is a manual on it from this site
http://www.tigeowners.com/manuals.shtml

So conclusion according to all the numerous opinions here, info from Tige, Faria, and reading the schematics in the manuals.....

Yes you can add a fuel flow, if it is 4" commander model. And yes you will have to give up the temp sensors.. The 5" model allows all of the above. To give up your temp sensors, you can simply cut the harness, and wire in the new tranducer. The harnesses are the same part number.

[chpthril]

6-way harness #HN0358 also shows the the transducer. Leads me to believe you can wire the transducer in this harness and keep the air/water temp?????

[spharis]

6 way is for the 5" instrument.....that is a different model. I think you hava a 4 inch. The 4" has two 4 pin plugs. The 5" has one 6-pin and one 4-pin (I was incorrect above). I am sure if you send Faria a detailed email with part numbers, they will confirm this.

Part numbers for the 4" tach are:
HN354 - large 4-pin plug for 4" commander - used for transducer
HN356 - small 4-pin plug for 4" commander - used for tach

The transducers you add are assigned to each. The 4-pin takes either the fuel flow, or the temp. The small 4-pin is the same on both and sends the tach signal.

Here is text from the manual...systems check refers to the 5" instrument. it gives the two options available for commanders. If you notice the 4" model (via connection part numbers above) supports both option Tach w/ fuel, or Tach w/temp.

2. Small Connector Socket

Tachometer with Fuel Flow
Follow the wiring diagram at the end of this manual for wiring connections. HN0356.
SystemCheck® connections can be found on HN0358.

*HN0356 is a picture of the small socket connector schema to connect to tach.

*HN0358 is a schema on wiring a systems check circuit. Maybe that's also an option. It uses the 4 wire small too.
The systems check has low oil, no oil, over temp, etc on the instrument.

Tachometer with Ambient Air and Water Temperature
Follow the wiring diagram at the end of this manual for wiring connections. HN0355.

*HN0355 shows schema of large 4-pin going to temp sensors. I think this is a typo and should probably read HN0356.

3. Large Connector Socket

Tachometer with Fuel Flow
Follow the wiring diagram at the end of this manual for wiring connections. HN0354.

*HN0354 is a schema of fuel flow and tank sender on the large 4-pin.

SystemCheck® connections can be found on HN0358.
same as above.....going to the system check circuit


Tachometer with Ambient Air and Water Temperature
Follow the wiring diagram at the end of this manual for wiring connections.
HN0355 or HN0372 for 5 inch Commanders.

*HN0355 is a schema of 4-pin 4" to temp sensors
*HN0372 is same for 5"

[chpthril]

Oh well, wishfull thinking I could have my cake and eat it to.

Thanks for your help, I learned alot more here than what you could get out of those manuals.

[spharis]

One more thing in there:

Note: For proper operation no additional fuel gauges may be connected to the fuel level sender.

Other Features
The Commander can have special features programmed in it at the Factory.

1) Fuel Management which includes, Fuel Flow, Fuel Used, Total Fuel Used, and Fuel Remaining.

2) Ambient Air and Water Temperature.


This manual covers both. Refer to your boats owners manual for which feature have been installed.


Might have to see what "programming" is required by a dealer.

[chpthril]

I've got the air/h2o temp, and I think I'll pass on the fuelflow to keep them .:confused: or just go with the kit w/gauge.

This manual covers both. Refer to your boats owners manual for which feature have been installed.

Didn't get one, but found the download. thats where I saw that the gauge was capable of this function, but the Dealer could not tell me $#!@. He just told me where to get one.

Might have to see what "programming" is required by a dealer.

Don't have one of those either :D

[spharis]

My guess is there is no programming required, unless you have the 5". The instrument goes through a POST, so I assume it determines the type of transducers that are connected during this. Faria may be able to shed more light or assist you in what to do to "program" it. More than likely if it does require "programming" it is a hidden menu in the instrument or similar.