Did I sieze the engine?

[Surfdad]

Ok, my '03 23V typically can only go about 6 months before it needs a new impellor and housing. Normally the serptine belt keeps rotating and the impellor pully doesn't so it screams and smokes and I know there is a problem.

Most recently I've had trouble with the thermostat.

Today, the engine overheated - I could smell "smoke" and so quickly checked the engine temp gauage and it was getting close to 220. No alarm or squealing belt. Got it towed back to the dock and checked the gauge - it was back down to 175. I attempted to start the engine and it wouldn't turn over. Similar to a battery being low but without the "clicking" of the solenoid.

Back home, fake-a-lake on and the starter would turn the engine over but not fast enough to start it. I possibly got one revolution of the crankshaft.

WTH happened? Any ideas?

[scoot18]

You may have one of the accessories on the engine seized up, like the alternator or water pump. Once it had a change to cool down it would free up enough to turn the engine over (possibly). Hopefully thats all that it is, but if the engine is cranking thats definately a good sign that the engine isn't seized.

[laserfish]

Take the belt off, make sure the battery is charged and crank it. Don't actually start it. Bet it turns free but something else is seized up like the impeller or alternator.

[kko]

yep the boys are on it. most likely have an accessorie locked up. my gues is the alt. its the most common to lock up. what motor do you have a merc.? and why do you only get 6 months from the impellor?

[Timmy!]

220 isn't hot enough to seize the motor - that's only 10 degrees more than normal operating on most cars. I'm with these guys, one of the accessories is frozen up.

[ddmracing05]

Check the water pump/impellar first. Its happened 2ce to us now and its always that damn impellar.

[ddmracing05]

Take the belt off, make sure the battery is charged and crank it. Don't actually start it. Bet it turns free but something else is seized up like the impeller or alternator.

My car usually runs around 80:confused:

[Surfdad]

Thanks 'bro's. I have the battery on the charger right now, 12 V, 6 amp and it's taking a charge like it's been discharged. The battery is less than a year old. I checked all the cells and they're still topped off.

I'll loosen the belt and see if she cranks after the battery has a charge.

I did check the oil - it's full - in fact it looks to be over full, NO sign of froth and it still looks fresh.

The serpetine belt looks fresh also, no signs of a stuck pulley where the belt would have burned or anything strange.

My guage only goes to 220 - that's the red one. I don't think it was pegged, but it could have been.

The engine is Merc - the Black Scorpion version.

[Tanner]

You guys don't think he could have cracked a head and has water sitting on the cylinders do you? :eek:

I've done exactly what you did b4 and that was the same symptoms I got. It wasn't exactly hydrolocking, but it was a form of it. While your at it... pull your spark plugs, try turning the motor and see if water shoots out. Pray it doesn't!

[jleger98]

I would loosen the belt first, and see if it turns....but I'm with Tanner, definitely check the plugs for water. Hopefully the head is not cracked and its just the impeller or something. Its also possible that you blew a bearing and that is what is causing the engine to not turn over well. I did that on an old 79 Volvo when I was in HS. It overheated, but I was too dumb to let it sit, and drove it the rest of the way home. The next morning it would not turn over and it was cause the main bearing has seized.

[Surfdad]

I am NOT encouraged. Battery charged, belt loose and it doesn't turn over. When I go to start it there is an awful KNOCK and nothing. Plugs come out next and my guess is that is my problem.

[jleger98]

eeesh, doesn't sound good. Just another thought, and I'm sure you've covered this, but the tranny isn't engaged, right? I know the neutral safety switch should keep it from starting, but.....its a thought.

[Tanner]

PULL THE PLUGS before trying to start it any more. You could end up bending rods and totally ruining the motor and everything else if it is hydrolocked.

[lee]

Engine could be hydro locked, pull the plugs and see if water is in the cylinders. If so that will stop the engine from turning over. If the engine miss fired and rotated backward the engine could have ingested water and filled the cylinders.

[samw]

Engine could be hydro locked, pull the plugs and see if water is in the cylinders. If so that will stop the engine from turning over. If the engine miss fired and rotated backward the engine could have ingested water and filled the cylinders.

Lee
Hydro lock, what is that and how would that happen?
Doesn't sound good.

[Surfdad]

I'm done with it for the evening - I only got two plugs out, no water yet.


No jleger - the tranny is in neutral, on my boat the cutoff disengages the ignition, the engine TRIES to turn over but won't. It is looking more and more like hydrolock.

[sparky216]

I'm done with it for the evening - I only got two plugs out, no water yet.


No jleger - the tranny is in neutral, on my boat the cutoff disengages the ignition, the engine TRIES to turn over but won't. It is looking more and more like hydrolock.

Good luck SurfDad, I hope it's not seized. I couldn't sleep knowing there were 6 plugs left to undo and check.........:eek:

[Tanner]

Lee
Hydro lock, what is that and how would that happen?
Doesn't sound good.

If you'll read my post early on I sort of described it. But to go into a bit more detail its where water has made it's way into the cylinders, usually through a cracked head in my experience, but there are other ways for water ingestion to occur. The water sits on top of the cylinders and does not compress like air does. When the cylinder is on it's stroke and tries to compress the water it doesn't give way... thus causing bent rods and trashed blocks in severe cases.

More often than not in boats I've seen, and been the victim of what surf dad might have just got first hand experience with. Luckily in boats, in my experience, the motor gets turned off before anything happens to the rods and block. Of course I don't see near the amount that the dealers do, so my theory probably doesn't hold true. But generally the guys catch the burning smell and shut their motor off just in time. Then they try to restart the motor and the cylinders are full of water and it just won't start.

Although this is Hydrolock... I like to say it's psuedo hydrolock b/c the motor isn't actually seized up and destroyed. But it is technically locked up due to the water, so therefore it is actually hydrolocked.

[Tanner]

Surf dad, don't panic yet. If your rods and block are ok, and your handy with motors generally you can get the heads repaired for about $400-$500 and they'll be as good as new.

When you get your heads pressure checked, it would be wise to have your exhaust manifolds checked at the same time. I went through the same situation TWICE in a row b/c I forgot to check the manifolds as well. I toasted the manifolds and heads.

Just remember... do not touch that key until you got all the plugs out of the motor. Then when you do, have someone bump the key and see if water shoots out of the cylinders. You may try to identify which cylinder it's coming from and pay special attn to it when looking for damage on the piston and cylinder.

[chpthril]

Lee
Hydro lock, what is that and how would that happen?
Doesn't sound good.

Hydro = water. Hydro-locked is when liquid enters a cylinder and prevents the piston from traveling to it's TDC (Top Dead Center). Liquid is not compressible so it prevents the engine from rotating. Usually the liquid is water/coolent from a blown head gasket, cracked head, etc, but can be gas from a sensor or ecm malfunction. Sports cars can also ingest water from puddles during heavy ran or 4x4's while off-roading.

[dogbert]

It sure sounds like you had some issues with your belt before all this started. Somebody pointed out your alternator, which doesn't sound like it's charging. You should also check the bearings on your flywheels because they're probably shot.

BTW, I know you surf a lot. Your boat's pretty similar to mine and I have real issues with water coming into the blower vent when we stop to pick up a rider. With the boat listing away from the bilge pump, it really takes a lot to get it to pump out any water and by that time there's a fair amount sloshing around in the bilge. This all runs to the back of the bilge when you're surfing and guess what the two lowest components are attached to your motor, that's right, it's the alternator and the impeller. I haven't had issues with my impeller housing, but I think Moki has and he added a spacer or something to the fly wheel to get it to stop causing issues.

I finally moved my bilge pump closer to the transom and that's helped eliminate the exess water in my bilge while I'm driving.

[Surfdad]

Thanks everyone.

As long as I've owned this boat, I've had cooling system issues. Literally I go through two impellors a year. Prior to the current mechanic the old Tige' dealership wasn't replacing the housing (but charging me for it). When the new mechanic swapped that out - I got more life out of the impellor, but NOW I've gone through two thermostats, in as many years. Sheesh.

My vent is in the back center of the transom so I almost never have any accumulation of water in the bilge.

Yesterday, James idled us out and then wasn't feeling well, so Judy started to take us out, I finally took the helm after about 5-7 minutes and that's when I smelled the "heat" and checked the temp guage. James and Judy aren't accustomed to checking the temp guage. This is the third time it's overheated in maybe 18 months. In previous episodes normally the impellor self-destructs, sticks and the pulley stops turning. The result is a HORRIBLE screech and smoking belt. It's easy to shut down before anything overheats. The last time was a stuck thermostat, that is a bit insidious because, unless you are watching the guage, you can run it for 4-5 minutes before noticing the smell.

My guess is that we have a blown head gasket and as the good folks have pointed out the result is hydrolock. I'll finish pulling the plugs this evening and let everyone know.

I'm just hoping that the 4 times I tried to start the boat didn't result in bending the rods. The engine never started and it seems that it would kick back - never completing a compression stroke, despite what I thought.

[SPBFAN]

I'm just hoping that the 4 times I tried to start the boat didn't result in bending the rods. The engine never started and it seems that it would kick back - never completing a compression stroke, despite what I thought.

Another easy way to see if you have water in the engine and if you took on enough to hydro lock is to check your oil there could be moisture on the oil dip stick or a white foamy color to the oil.

If you did hydro lock you probably bent a rod if you were at a higher RPM. If you were just cranking it unless you got it to full cranking speed you only have about a 50% chance you bent a rod.

Sounds like water in the engine though. This is common for head gaskets to leak at the start of the year if the weatherization was not complete and accurate. Corrosion takes place over the winter while sitting and then when you run the boat your first couple of times out the rust holds up until it all gets washed away and then just when you think things are OK the rust gives out and the corroded gasket gives way and bang water in the cylinder.

[Surfdad]

It was running fine when I shut it down - no knocks, or unusual sounds. When I tried to start it, later, I don't believe that it turned over at all. It never started after I shut it down on the lake.

I checked the oil and it looked fine on the dip stick. No foam or froth...but if I shut it down before any water got into the crankcase while it was running, there probably wouldn't be any telltale signs like the frothing milkshake, right? I didn't see anything that looked like water or condensation on the stick. However, it looks like the level on the dipstick is HIGH which would seem to me, indicative that there is water in there somewhere.

[noworries]

If you get a loud THUNK when engaging the starter the bendix is being thrown into the flywheel and the engine is not turning. This is not good as it indicates something is preventing the crankshaft from rotating. If its just more of a CLICK, then its probably the starter solenoid engaging but the starter is not turning. Then it could be a bad starter. Not good either, but possibly much cheaper.

Definitely pull the spark plugs and try cranking it, or turning the crankshaft with a breaker bar and socket from the end of the crankshaft. An overfull reading on the dipstick could indicate water in the oil that hasn't foamed yet into a white froth. Oil will float on the water.

Chronic overheating could be caused by bits of destroyed impellers floating around in the engine blocking off water passages. Have you ever found any impeller bits when replacing the thermostats? Getting those bits out of an engine will be a mechanic's nightmare, but you will surely help him make HIS boat payment!

Also, have you used marine thermostats, or just automotive ones from the local parts house? Marine thermostats are different and designed to handle the cold lake water instead of the hot water from a radiator. Its frankly hard to believe that a thermostat would go bad, but I suppose it does happen on occasion.

[bentone]

like noworries has stated, if one of your accessories has burnt up and shorted out, it will draw all of your amperage out of your batteries thus not letting it turn over. Do your batteries still have a good charge?

[Surfdad]

It was definately a THUNK - scary sort of noise. There was some movement in the assembly. I had my son lie on the sunpad and watch. The belt moved maybe 1/2 inch and then when I let the key go, it rotated back. It seems unlikely to me that I could have bent a rod just with the torgue in the starter and the engine was running fine when I shut it down, albiet hotter than blue blazes.

The first therostat was just frozen - never opened up. I didn't see anything resembling impellor pieces. I got a direct replacement from the parts department of the dealer. On the last one though, the impellor went and I had that replaced along with the housing and the following week the thermostat was jammed closed with impellor bits. I don't know if all the impellor bits were removed after that - could be there was remenants.

Hey Bentone - yeah I charged the battery up and also used the truck to jump it. The sound it's making isn't that clicking sound of the solenoid jumping - it's a HUGE earth-shattering THUNK and nothing.

[noworries]

Definitely get the rest of the plugs out and then see if you get a jet of water out of one hole when you crank it. Just "bump" the starter though. The spark plug holes are pretty small.

R&R'ing cylinder heads is a good father-son bonding experience.

[TriValleyMarine]

Hey Surf Dad. Don't panic yet. We've seen this many times. I'm not convinced you did enough to crack the head or blow the head gasket. Did you get all the spark plugs out? You need to do that and try to crank the engine over. It should turn freely with the plugs out. You said the engine "back turned" when you shut it off, which is somewhat common in an over-heat. In that case, it can ingest water into the cylinders from the exhaust. It may be that simple. A high oil level reading does not indicate water in the oil; the oil would be milky if it had water in it. Also, some of the Merc brackets are not straight. It requires a shim kit to make the belt run straight. That could also be part of your problems. Call me if you need advice or assistance.

Dave
925-371-5456

[Surfdad]

Thanks Dave - 925 are you in Tracy or Discovery bay?

I haven't pulled all the plugs yet, I plan to finish that up this evening. I loosened the tensioner on the belt last night so that it's completely loose and that didn't help. I wasn't aware of the shim kit issue.

The oil on the dipstick looks fresh, none of the milkiness or froth. Looked like a normal dipstick, although the level was very high. Dave, wouldn't it require that the engine was running when the water got in there to create that milky apperance? Literally, as soon as I smelled the engine as "hot" I shut it down and it hasn't turned over since. When I did shut it down, it sounded fine it was idlling ok, and ran well before that.

I'm not sure this is possible, but it "feels" like water possibly seeped into the cylinder after I shut the engine off and IF there is Hydrolock, it happened subsequent to the over heating, but before I attempted to start it at the dock...it took about 1/2 an hour to flag down a passing boat, get a tow rope attached get the boat towed back to the dock. That's when I attempted to start it. I attempted to start it twice while still at the dock, I didn't check for the back turn at that point, nor do I remember the nasty THUNK noise at the dock...but it could have happened.

After trailering it home is when I noticed the THUNK and saw the back turn. That would have been maybe 2 hours later.

[dogbert]

The shim issue is a real nightmare. I've had 2 friends, both with 21vs, who have had issues with their belts. Be sure to get the right size belt as well and have your flywheel bearings replaced while you're at it. My boat started sounding like it had a large sewing machine in it just before I replaced the alternator.

[FacePlant]

Hope its not a spun bearing. Fingers crossed!!

[noworries]

If the oil level is very high, consider draining it down before doing anything else and see if you got water in the oil pan. Then you can see about cranking the engine.

If water intruded after you shut it off either as suggested by sucking back from the exhaust manifold, or from a heat-related parts failure, you want to get the water out of the pan before you pump it through the engine, even by cranking it. The oil drain hose will have oil in it even if the pan's loaded with water, so let it drain a while, at least till the level gets back to normal. If there is water in the pan, it'll be at the bottom under the oil itself and will come out right away after the little bit of oil in the drain hose flows out.

[TriValleyMarine]

Livermore is 925 area code, so 925-371-5456. Like one of the guys explained earlier, if you have water in a cylinder, the engine won't turn over because the engine can't compress water. The thunk sound you describe could just be the starter trying to crank the engine with water in a cylinder. It doesn't necessarily mean your engine seized, these engines can take some short term over heating. What you're saying sounds promising, so keep your fingers crossed! Remove all the spark plugs, turn the key, see if you get any water out of any of the cylinders and if it cranks easily.

[Moki]

It sure sounds like you had some issues with your belt before all this started. Somebody pointed out your alternator, which doesn't sound like it's charging. You should also check the bearings on your flywheels because they're probably shot.

BTW, I know you surf a lot. Your boat's pretty similar to mine and I have real issues with water coming into the blower vent when we stop to pick up a rider. With the boat listing away from the bilge pump, it really takes a lot to get it to pump out any water and by that time there's a fair amount sloshing around in the bilge. This all runs to the back of the bilge when you're surfing and guess what the two lowest components are attached to your motor, that's right, it's the alternator and the impeller. I haven't had issues with my impeller housing, but I think Moki has and he added a spacer or something to the fly wheel to get it to stop causing issues.

I finally moved my bilge pump closer to the transom and that's helped eliminate the exess water in my bilge while I'm driving.

We have the same engine and I went through a lot of impellers until I changed the housing. I also will notice that my impeller tines will sometimes be backwards after shutting the engine off and the impeller will whine until rotates back into position. I added a spacer on my new alternator to get it to align up. I am no mechanic but it seems unlikely that you have caused a lot of damage if it was still idling when you turned it off.

Have you priced out a new block in case of the worse?

[Surfdad]

It sounds like it's got a bent rod. All the plugs out and no water, but the starter won't turn it over. Turning it by hand produces a nasty noise.

It's the 340 hp and I've found a drop in replacement for 13,000! A sort of long block substitute is around 8,500.

PLUS it'll be 4 weeks to get either option.

[ragboy]

man, that sucks this time of the season.

[eks]

Sorry to hear that :(

If you come to Utah we give you a pull!

[TriValleyMarine]

Hey Surfdad. I've got a great mechanic that does what we call "heavy service". I'm not convinced you need a new short or long block. I'd like to help you out, so give me a call if you like. I'd like to have him see your boat and really find out what's going on. I'm sure we can get it fixed the right way and as inexpensively as possible for you.

Dave
925-371-5456

[Surfdad]

Dave you rock. I'll give you a call tomorrow see if you can save me some bling.

Thanks a ton 'bro.

[Tanner]

Good luck surfdad.

Instead of looking at whole turnkey crate motors and the likes.... try looking for just blocks.

I know you can find 5.7 350 blocks for cheap, and then pick up a set of rods (might as well go forged while your at it... they're readily available)... transfter everything else over and BAM... back in business. I know trivalley should be able to help you with this. If things shine on you correctly I knowwww you can be back on the water by memorial!

[noworries]

It sounds like it's got a bent rod. All the plugs out and no water, but the starter won't turn it over. Turning it by hand produces a nasty noise.

It's the 340 hp and I've found a drop in replacement for 13,000! A sort of long block substitute is around 8,500.

PLUS it'll be 4 weeks to get either option.
For 13K you can probably be close to 500HP reliably, but you might need a new prop -- and, transmission and v-drive to handle it! Definitely don't spend that kind of money without considering every other option and having torn down your's. A rebuild may be your best option

Here's another option. Maybe they have a wreck you can pick over.
Rancho Marine Recycling
3761 Unit C Recycle Rd.
Rancho Cordova, CA 95742
Phone: (916) 638-8908
Fax: (916) 638-8099
Toll Free Order Line:
(866) 375-6000
http://www.boatrecycling.com/

[SPBFAN]

I am sure he can. You can rebuild that engine for a whole lot less than replacing it. Plus during the rebuild you can do some mods to it that will strengthen the engine and probably give you a little more go to it. Not to mention run way smoother.

[da.bell]

Surfdad does run a lot of ballast weight.. Might be a great idea for him. :02:

[Timmy!]

A rebuild will cost you a LOT less than a replacement and there's really no need for a replacement unless you somehow damaged the block. Are you sure the starter is good?