Weekend from hell...Need a fuel pump

[jleger98]

Anyone have a good place to get Mercruiser parts online? I had a fuel pump go bad this weekend. (after we had driven 4 hours one-way) Three Mercruiser dealers did not have the part in stock.

The worst part was that when it first died, I was anchored with about 5-6 Mastercrafts. My Tige was the one boat to not start. The call over the radios went out "Hang on guys, Joel has a Tige".......how embarrasing.

To top off the weekend, we got a flat on the trailer 10 miles away from the hotel on the way home. Wrecked the rim. Trying to find a new rim and tire in Minoqcua on a Sunday is next to impossible. Had to drive 180miles+ to find one.

From poking around on the web, it seems that for my boat (1997 PRE2150wt) which has a Mercruiser EFI 350 Magnum Gen+, you can't buy a fuel pump. You have to buy the cooling kit along with it, which I already have. So why do I have to pay an extra $100+ to get something I already have??

Does anyone know of a different setup I could use? Anyone know of a place where I can get a pump only??

I know you are going to ask, but I have not checked the volts at the connection, but you could hear the thing going. Was making noise you could hear above the engine before it died, so I'm pretty sure its the pump.

It seemed that it only failed after it sat for a while and got hot. If I could get it started, it would run fine once the water got moving through the pump to cool it off. Once it sat there, it would not restart, or it would restart and just burn off the gas in the line and then die.

[Stoneman]

Check my post "FUEL PUMP?" as I just had a similar problem last week. Although I'm happy to say mine ended up being a fuse only, while trying to diagnos it I did find the fuel pumps (without the colling kit) on ebay out of Maine. Good luck-hope your fix is as easy as mine was.

[dogbert]

Check this link (http://www.perfprotech.com/store/assembly/FUEL%20PUMP%20AND%20FUEL%20FILTER,2334-60.aspx). I found it while trying to decide whether to fix my alternator myself or have it done.

[teachercop]

I am experiencing similiar symptoms with my 99 22i with the MerCruiser 350 315 MPI. Your anti-siphon valve may be contributing to your situation as well. I found if you take the cover off the fuel pump once this happens and shoot the pump with ice chest water (from the melted ice) with a water gun it solves the problem and you are back in the game.

If you remove the pump assembly, if the pump has screws underneath going into the water cooler than you can replace just the pump. I am going to replace the assembly as I suspect that something may be blocking the cooling rails on the cooler not allowing it to cool the pump properly. I mean it worked great for 7 years and 440 hours, I figure I will take the hit although I am price shopping the unit. It is $293 up here at Lake Powell.

[Domsz06]

jleger

sorry to hear ya had a bad weekend, hope it gets better and you get it all fixed!

[TeamAllen]

Sorry to hear about your problem. I experienced similar problems with my 2150 as well at Lake Powell earlier this month. You might want to read this thread.
http://www.tigeowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4368

Here is the thread Stoneman mentioned.
http://www.tigeowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4626

The part fuel pump part # should be 861156A 1 but is No longer available by itself from Merccruiser. Here is TSB I found.
http://www.mercruiserparts.com/bulletins/001/04//2004/EN_05.PDF

[TeamAllen]

I think I will replace the whole assembly as well like teachercop.
Maybe they don't make it any longer for a reason?
Maybe it's an upgrade?
Maybe the pump fails because of overheating due to a problem in the cooler assembly? If you replaced just the $185 pump it may have a shortened life?

[jleger98]

Might be true that there is a problem with the cooler I suppose, which originally caused the pump to fail. According to one dealer I talked to this weekend, the reason a lot of them fail is because the pump CAN overheat when the cooling lines get blocked. So maybe replacing the whole thing isn't such a bad idea??

Stoneman, I did read your post last night. Good thing it was just a fuse (they're CHEAP :D )

TeamAllen, thanks for the other thread, I'll read up on it.

We did pull the anti-siphon valve off (right on the tank) and it was free moving, si I don't know if thats the problem.

One other thing....could this be a result of water in the gas tank? The fuel overflow valve IS below the waterline. The fuel/water separator had fuel in it, couldn't tell if there was water in it w/o dumping it into the lake....bad idea....

One guy who was there and does a LOT of work on boats and cars thinks there could be some sludge in the bottom of the tank.

More thoughts?

[teachercop]

Since I am right here with you regarding the fuel pump, continuing with my thoughts, gasoline sits in the pump during the off seasona and periods of extended inactivity. Fuel stabilizer aside, the pump may get exposed to the gasoline varnish, a bit of water and such. I figure this exposure has taken its toll. In addition, if you have ever fried an impeller, particulates may have migrated to the cooler rails and partially blocked. Unlike a vehicle that tends to get used frequently, the fuel pump on the boat may have a shorter life and replacing the fuel cooler assembly is the way I will go to hopefully return to the reliability we had.

My thoughts on the matter. The boat mechanic up here in Powell believes you could probably go with just the pump. Then the second mechanic suggested the entire unit. Flip a coin....:cool: :cool:

[jleger98]

I think I'm going to not mess around here. I am going to get the entire assembly and replace it, plus I'm going to replace the anti-siphon valve. I have another trip with the boat coming up in 2 weeks, certainly don't want to be sidelined then too.

Is that 350 considered a big block or a small block?

Also, anyone know what size that anti-siphon valve is? 3/8? 1/4? (1997 PRE2150 w/t)

[dogbert]

Big block. Check the link I added earlier and you will get the part numbers. If you go back to their main site, you can look your engine up by serial number.

[jleger98]

That link says the 350 is a small block. In 1997, it seems the only big blocks made were the 7.4L and 8.2L.

Otherwise, order is placed.....now I just hope thats the cure :)

Thanks to everyone for their help. I'll report back what the end result is.

[dogbert]

Good luck!

[Yooper]

Lot's of good info in this thread. I never thought of it getting too hot and burning out the pump. That is a possibility.

...sorry about the Tige' comment on the radio... At the time I didn't realize that you were actually broken down :o

[jleger98]

yeah, no big deal. Way I figure it, coulda happened to anyone. Just sux that it happened to me.

[TeamAllen]

The old part # is 861156A 1 the new part number should be 861156A04
The cheapest I have found it so far is $269.06 shipped from NJ.
http://www.boatfix.com/bypartnomercfrg.asp?partno=861156A04
My local marine store wants $315.93

[R&T Babich]

Our boat also has a little trouble starting after it has been run and stopped for 10-15 minutes or so. It cranks fine, but sometimes takes a few extra cranks to actually fire. The fuel pump is next to the exhaust down low in the bilge and I'll bet it gets quite hot down there. The heat might even cause it to draw a little extra power and blow a marginal fuse. I'm going to get a temp gauge and monitor the temps. A small thermostatically activated fan might help extend the life of the pump. My experience has been heat causes most of my repair issues.

Stoneman - when did your fuse blow? Was is after you had been running awhile?

I thought the fuel pump cooler was actually there to cool the return line fuel to prevent the lower pressure return line from getting vapor lock, not to cool the pump. The high pressure side won't vapor lock.

A 350 cid GM motor is a small block.

Try emailing the eBay seller "kandkmarine" if he has any more of the pumps. I got a spare for $158.

[dogbert]

Our boat also has a little trouble starting after it has been run and stopped for 10-15 minutes or so. It cranks fine, but sometimes takes a few extra cranks to actually fire. The fuel pump is next to the exhaust down low in the bilge and I'll bet it gets quite hot down there. The heat might even cause it to draw a little extra power and blow a marginal fuse. I'm going to get a temp gauge and monitor the temps. A small thermostatically activated fan might help extend the life of the pump. My experience has been heat causes most of my repair issues.


Hmmm, I wonder if running the blower would help then? I almost never use mine, but I really don't have any vents going into the engine compartment on my boat. It gets in through various gaps in the sides of the boat. I'll try and see if running the blower for a while fixes this. The problem is that the thing is soooo darn loud.

[teachercop]

I think I'm going to not mess around here. I am going to get the entire assembly and replace it, plus I'm going to replace the anti-siphon valve. I have another trip with the boat coming up in 2 weeks, certainly don't want to be sidelined then too.

Is that 350 considered a big block or a small block?

Also, anyone know what size that anti-siphon valve is? 3/8? 1/4? (1997 PRE2150 w/t)


The 350 is a GM small block 5.7 Liter.

The part number I got was #861156A03....I will research and see what the (04) number works with. Maybe it is a newer version......thanks for the fuel pump link,,that is the cheapest I have seen the pump kit....

[R&T Babich]

dogbert - I had thought of using the blower, but our pickup is on the other side of the motor and probably wouldn't help any. Our blower is the original blue plastic 3" cheapo, but it's not very loud. Also, now that you mention it there are no intake air vents on these boats. My old boat had a dedicated scoop on the side for fresh air. Cool air must be coming in thru all the gaps in the engine housing. One of those gaps takes all the water that comes over the nose - had 1/2" of water pour thru there a couple weeks ago.

350 cubic inches = 5.7 liters (approx), English vs metric

[dogbert]

Ok, we both have essentially the same boat. My blower pickup is on the driver's side. Is the fuel pump on the passenger side?

[R&T Babich]

Just the opposite. The blower is on the left side of the boat and the fuel pump is on the right (drivers side). Ours has the 350 Mag MPI. The raw water pickup is in front of the fuel pump/cooler on the right. The fuel filter and trans cooler are on the left.

[jleger98]

The old part # is 861156A 1 the new part number should be 861156A04
The cheapest I have found it so far is $269.06 shipped from NJ.
http://www.boatfix.com/bypartnomercfrg.asp?partno=861156A04
My local marine store wants $315.93

I found it here for $279:
https://www.marinepowerservice.com/BoatingStore/PartNumSearch1.cfm?partNumber=861156A04&CFID=942721&CFTOKEN=31852977

$298 with 2-day shipping.

[anhaney]

A 350 is classified as a small block. Anything under a 400 is classified as a small block. JLEDGER. Give me some part numbers PM them. I have access to all the Quick Silver Line and Merc Cruiser. I can try to see if I can find them for you at a decent pricing. And I understand why you were at the lake last week it was hot in Minneapolis. I though of contacting you :D

[teachercop]

The old part # is 861156A 1 the new part number should be 861156A04
The cheapest I have found it so far is $269.06 shipped from NJ.
http://www.boatfix.com/bypartnomercfrg.asp?partno=861156A04
My local marine store wants $315.93

Allen,,
do you know if that pump is the newest version part number of 861156A03???

[Stoneman]

Babich-the fuse blew after we'd been running for about 15 minutes or so close to WOT and it was about 120+ that day. Could be the heat??

[TeamAllen]

Allen,,
do you know if that pump is the newest version part number of 861156A03???

My boat uses the part ending in 04. Check the TSB I linked earlier and match it up with your engine serial # on the side.

Here is the link to your model 861156A03
http://www.boatfix.com/bykeywordmerc.asp?textfield=861156A03&texttype=2&submit=Search

I ordered mine yesterday. The guy @ boatfix told me a little about the product #'s. The letter (A) at the end of the part number means it comes in plain cardboard boxing. If it had a Q it means it would come in a quicksilver box. The number at the end of the product number is the consecutive number of the vender used to make it. Thats why the original part # has a 1 at the end and the others on that TSB are 02/03/04.

[anhaney]

My boat uses the part ending in 04. Check the TSB I linked earlier and match it up with your engine serial # on the side.

Here is the link to your model 861156A03
http://www.boatfix.com/bykeywordmerc.asp?textfield=861156A03&texttype=2&submit=Search

I ordered mine yesterday. The guy @ boatfix told me a little about the product #'s. The letter (A) at the end of the part number means it comes in plain cardboard boxing. If it had a Q it means it would come in a quicksilver box. The number at the end of the product number is the consecutive number of the vender used to make it. Thats why the original part # has a 1 at the end and the others on that TSB are 02/03/04.

How much did it cost you. I found a place where I can get them for $240.00 + Freight.

[TeamAllen]

Thanks anhaney. I paid $248.02 + $10 shipping. Maybe your connection will help out one of the others.
Thanks again for sharing!

[anhaney]

Thanks anhaney. I paid $248.02 + $10 shipping. Maybe your connection will help out one of the others.
Thanks again for sharing!

Great, it was only eight dollars diffrence.

[jleger98]

ok, so new pump and water/fuel separator are in. Just got back from the lake and it started right up and had no problems.

I got her all warmed up, then shut it down and let it sit for 15-20 minutes. Started it back up, and it hesitates a little when you jam the throttle from idle fwd to full. The more time you do it, the better it gets until after about 4 times the hesitation is gone. The hesitation seems to be at about 2000 rpms, but it will power right through it. If you accellerate more slowly to full, it doesn't do it.

Anyone have any ideas? Siphon valve?? Something else???

I've checked the siphone valve 2x and it moves freely.

[dogbert]

Check your distributor cap.

[TeamAllen]

I don't know? My fuel pump and cooler are coming Wednesday and we're leaving for Lake Havasu on Thursday.

I was hoping that would be the end of it. I will try and round up a new anti-siphon valve this week locally.

[dogbert]

My neighbor's boat would hesitate like that and then finally it wouldn't start. He had the distributor cap/rotor replaced and the thing runs like a top.

[teachercop]

Being I am experience similiar problems,,I have suspicions of the pressure regulator. The heat of the engine/fuel may be tweaking the regulator. I am starting with the fuel pump replacement, if that does not fully get it, I will look closely at the fuel regulator.

Spending the week at Havasu, doesn't get much hotter than there. We shall see.....

[Moki]

Hmmm, I wonder if running the blower would help then? I almost never use mine, but I really don't have any vents going into the engine compartment on my boat. It gets in through various gaps in the sides of the boat. I'll try and see if running the blower for a while fixes this. The problem is that the thing is soooo darn loud.

You can replace your blower very easily with a new quieter blower. Blowers get much louder as they get older.

[dogbert]

Yeah, they just replaced mine when I had mine in for a 100 hr service. Apparently wakesurfing is hard on my blower. I have this huge vent in the back and water just pours in whenever we stop. I may have to put in some type of flapper mechanism to prevent that from happening.

BTW, for those of you who have Mercruiser Tournament Mag engines, you need to replace your distributor cap/rotor every 2 years because they wear out. So, if your boat is running like it needs a tune-up, it's probably that.

[jleger98]

Dist cap, Interesting.....Can you get the same thing at an auto parts store or are they different? I'm assuming you need the rotor as well.

[dogbert]

Probably not, it has 4 screws to keep it on. Most automobile caps are clip-on.

They're pretty cheap.

http://www.iboats.com/mall/partfinder/?cart_id=066578217&gd_dir=Mercruiser_sterndrive:Ignition_System&search_type=referral&session_id=547051540

[anhaney]

Dist cap, Interesting.....Can you get the same thing at an auto parts store or are they different? I'm assuming you need the rotor as well.


Go to CARQUEST Auto Parts they have a complete marine line where you can get a DIST CAP and rotor. Marine caps are diffrent they are not vented. The are sealed caps.
:D

[dogbert]

Good to know. We have an O'Reilly near our lakehouse and they have some marine stuff...I'll have to ask them.

[anhaney]

Good to know. We have an O'Reilly near our lakehouse and they have some marine stuff...I'll have to ask them.

What you are looking for is any auto parts store that sells STANDARD Motor Products as there ignition line. Let me know the part number once you find the correct replacement. I may be able to hook all you guys up. :D

[jleger98]

Ok, got the new distrib cap/rotor on, new fuel pump, new water/fuel separator installed and tested the boat on a local lake and it seemed fine. (BTW, good tip on the distributor cap, it was past due) Drove the boat up to the Crosby mines. Spent all night Friday, and 3-4 hours saturday with no problems. Then the same thing happened again. Go to take off and it runs fine for about two seconds, then starts to die. at first, you can overcome it by pushing to WOT, but it gradually gets worse to the point where it wont run. Seems like the only fix is to take off the air cleaner and let it "air out" Almost seems like its getting too much gas. After it "airs out" for a while, it will start up and then you can sort of work through it by pumping the throttle etc. Eventually it gets better and we were able to save the day Saturday. Only took about an hour out of the day. same thing happened again Sunday.

Could this be a fuel regulator issue? I checked the siphon valve.....again, and the in-tank pickup, both are fine. If its not the anti-siphon valve, and its not the regulator, what else could it be???? Very frustrating.

[chpthril]

J,

Is your engine carb'ed or F/Injected?

[R&T Babich]

Is it very hot out when this is happening? Is it running fine when the temps are lower? It sounds like too much fuel when the temps are high. Check a spark plug when it's running good and again when it's not. Is your engine "throttle body injected"? Our 2000 350 Mag MPI is distributed injection. Our sends a vacuum signal to the fuel pressure regulator which I think causes it to bleed off fuel when the RPMs are low and allows max pressure at higher RPMs. One reference I read stated it is connected to "manifold vacuum" which is high at idle and low at WOT. I need to test it find out for sure. A leaking hose may give you max pressure all the time. "Wet" plugs will tell you if there's too much fuel.

[jleger98]

J,

Is your engine carb'ed or F/Injected?

EFI

[jleger98]

Is it very hot out when this is happening? Is it running fine when the temps are lower? It sounds like too much fuel when the temps are high. Check a spark plug when it's running good and again when it's not. Is your engine "throttle body injected"? Our 2000 350 Mag MPI is distributed injection. Our sends a vacuum signal to the fuel pressure regulator which I think causes it to bleed off fuel when the RPMs are low and allows max pressure at higher RPMs. One reference I read stated it is connected to "manifold vacuum" which is high at idle and low at WOT. I need to test it find out for sure. A leaking hose may give you max pressure all the time. "Wet" plugs will tell you if there's too much fuel.

Yes it is connected to the throttle body by vacuum line. I didn't think to check if plugs were wet.

when regulators go bad, do they go gradually, or all at once?

[spharis]

Yep, run it wide open down the lake, stop it kill it, and pull a plug fairly quickly. Also check the plug coloring. There was a really good website somewhere with this info, I'll see if I can find it when I get a chance.

[jleger98]

It was not particularly hot out when this happened. high 80's maybe.

SP, I'll try that....maybe I can go out for a test run tonight.

For what its worth, the plugs only have about 20 hours on them....they were brand new this spring.

[R&T Babich]

The picture I just saw of our regulator at Go2Marine, #77382, $96 http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=77381F, shows a vacuum can on the side similar to those that control car heater doors. If it's like yours it would have a rubber diaphragm in there that may have issues with heat. Mine is in a plastic housing out of sight. Our engine has fuel rails and a port to measure fuel pressure. If you could hook up a fuel pressure gauge and a brake bleeder vacuum pump to the regulator vacuum line you should see changes in the fuel pressure at idle. Just pulling the vacuum line on/off at idle might work, too. I'll have to try this on ours sometime to see what happens.

[jleger98]

Yep, thats the bad boy right there. I wish I had a pic, but the vacuum line on mine runs directly from that regulator to the base of the throttle body. No canister. If I can get out to the lake tonight, I'll try to run it with and without that vacuum line connected. Although, I'm not entirely sure what that will tell me.

[chpthril]

Is it very hot out when this is happening? Is it running fine when the temps are lower? It sounds like too much fuel when the temps are high. Check a spark plug when it's running good and again when it's not. Is your engine "throttle body injected"? Our 2000 350 Mag MPI is distributed injection. Our sends a vacuum signal to the fuel pressure regulator which I think causes it to bleed off fuel when the RPMs are low and allows max pressure at higher RPMs. One reference I read stated it is connected to "manifold vacuum" which is high at idle and low at WOT. I need to test it find out for sure. A leaking hose may give you max pressure all the time. "Wet" plugs will tell you if there's too much fuel.

You are correct, the fuel pressure reg is controlled by engine vacuum. It's function is to increase the fuel pressure to compensate for the drop in manifold vacuum.

The usual increase is about 7 to 10 psi. I dont know that this would be enough to cause any extreme symptoms. May run a little rougher at Idle but not to the point of stalling and/or not starting

EFI I should have asked all at once, sorry but, is it T/body or port injected.

Throttle body - if it has a regulator, it may be part of the t/body and makes diagnosis harder.

Port injected - the regulator will be at the end of fuel rail right before the return line and will have a vacuum hose attached to it.

First, pull off the vacuum hose and check for raw fuel inside. This is an indicator that the diaphragm has split and the reg need replaced.

Next, with a fuel gauge attached, start and idle engine. Pull off vacuum hose and look for the pressure to increase and then drop back when the hose is reinstalled.

Yes it is connected to the throttle body by vacuum line. I didn't think to check if plugs were wet.

when regulators go bad, do they go gradually, or all at once?

The most common failure is a split diaphragm which will result in an extreme rich condition and stall the engine at idle and make it hard to start.

Your problem does sound fuel related.

[jleger98]

You are correct, the fuel pressure reg is controlled by engine vacuum. It's function is to increase the fuel pressure to compensate for the drop in manifold vacuum.

The usual increase is about 7 to 10 psi. I dont know that this would be enough to cause any extreme symptoms. May run a little rougher at Idle but not to the point of stalling and/or not starting

I should have asked all at once, sorry but, is it T/body or port injected.


It has the vacuum coming off the regulator and the regulator is down by the fuel pump/cooler, so I guess that makes it port injected.



Throttle body - if it has a regulator, it may be part of the t/body and makes diagnosis harder.

Port injected - the regulator will be at the end of fuel rail right before the return line and will have a vacuum hose attached to it.

First, pull off the vacuum hose and check for raw fuel inside. This is an indicator that the diaphragm has split and the reg need replaced.

Next, with a fuel gauge attached, start and idle engine. Pull off vacuum hose and look for the pressure to increase and then drop back when the hose is reinstalled.


Where can I get one, where do I hook it up etc?






The most common failure is a split diaphragm which will result in an extreme rich condition and stall the engine at idle and make it hard to start.

Your problem does sound fuel related.

[R&T Babich]

chpthril - in one of jleer98's earlier posts he mentions a hesitation at 2000 RPM. Ours runs great and usually we'll run the RPMs up to 3000-3200 when pulling up a skier. If I don't get the throttle set right and start pulling at 2000-2200 RPM there is a loss of power. Any thoughts? Is there some switch-over point around that RPM? On carbs there's a transition from idle circuit to primary.

[jleger98]

This weekend, with the additional ballast :) we were pulling at about 2900 and having the same issue.

The thing that puzzles me is that it eventually went away.

Is it possible that if you get too much water in the bilge that it starts steaming off the oil pan and then that moist air gets sucked into the air intake essentially creating water in the gas mixture?? It seems like when we load up the rear port corner, the bilge cannot pump because the hole it comes out is then below the water line.....and maybe water even comes in.

The first time this happened, at least this weekend, was when we were riding on that side. Once we emptied the bags, I flipped the pump on and it ran for a good 3-4 mins.. when I opened the engine cover, there was condensation everywhere except for the warm parts of the engine.

My engine cover does not have a vent like my old boat did. The other thing I thought of is if the blower hose gets water in it, that makes the blower that much less effective at removing that moist air.

[R&T Babich]

I have this gauge from Harbor Freight - http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=92699.
I haven't had to use it, but my friend borrowed it to check his Wakesetter.
There should be a valve on the fuel rail that looks like a tire valve to hook it up.

[jleger98]

ok, so I should be able to just get one at a local auto parts store, right? Nothing really marinized about it?

[R&T Babich]

Right, nothing "marine" about it. I bought for testing my cars. I thought about finding just a gauge I could screw into the pipe thread fitting at the ends of the fuel rails, but it's hard finding one for gas, most are for air/water.

[jleger98]

I don't think I have fuel rails. I'm assuming there is something that I can attach in to.

[jleger98]

So after a lot of digging and some help from Anhaney, we discovered that MercCruiser recommends that if you replace the fuel pump and cooler, you should replace the fuel regulator too. Thats where I'll start and see if it fixes the problem.

[chpthril]

So after a lot of digging and some help from Anhaney, we discovered that MercCruiser recommends that if you replace the fuel pump and cooler, you should replace the fuel regulator too. Thats where I'll start and see if it fixes the problem.


Good luck, let us know.

[TeamAllen]

I just replaced the fuel pump, cooler assembly and anti siphon valve last night. I re-used the regulator. I'll see how it does next week at Shaver Lake.
You might need to replace the two cooling hoses attached to the fuel cooler. The ends, of the rubber hoses, on mine were fused onto the copper tube. Save yourself time, buy new hoses and cut off the old ones. That is a tight place to be working with that plastic housing getting in the way sometimes.

I don't think the anti-siphon valve was it. It looked good and moved just as free as the new one. I replaced it anyway. The new pump sounded strong. The old pump occaisionaly got this high pitched whine. Especially after it would vapor lock.

I thought about this some more today. Would a different octane of fuel make a difference. I know higher octane fuel has a slower burning rate. Would different octane fuel, vaporize any more or less? I have used 91 and 89 octane in the past but after reading some posts have moved down to the 87 octane. Any thoughts.

[jleger98]

I just replaced the fuel pump, cooler assembly and anti siphon valve last night. I re-used the regulator. I'll see how it does next week at Shaver Lake.

One end of the cooling hoses was pretty fused, I was able to cut the end off and reuse it. The other end came off pretty clean. I should have my regulator either tomorrow or Monday, so I'll know if its helped after that. Hopefully you won't have any trouble, but I would consider replacing the regulator, as MC suggests it. Anhaney can get it a lot cheaper than any place I found it. Part # is 807952A 1 if you need it.

[TeamAllen]

The cheapest I found the regulator is $75. I will see how it goes this week. I'm glad you were able to save the hoses.

[jleger98]

Ok, so after the crappy weather finally went away, we had a perfect Labor Day weekend. mid 80's light wind. You think I spent time on the boat?? HEEEELLLLLL no. Had to rebuild the deck. Long story.....Anyway. Monday we finally got out on the boat. This is the first time since adding the fuel regulator, so I was anxious to find out if the problem went away.

Boat ran great for the first 3 hours. We were just about to come in when BAM same issue. We had just got done draining the sacs, (so had been stopped for about 10-15 mins) I started it up, and as soon as I applied throttle it bogged, and only because I jacked the throttle around did I get it to go. I don't get it.

We had it warmed up, running etc, stopped and swam, ran it again, stopped and swam with no issues.

So, new fuel pump, new fuel regulator, new dist cap and rotor, and still the problem persists. Anyone got any ideas? Ignition modules under the dist cap?? Anything else???

[TeamAllen]

Wow! Now you've got me worried again. The only things I did was replace the fuel pump water cooler combination and new anti-siphon valve. I haven't got to the regulator yet. My problem has not returned.

Did you replace the copper cooler part as well as the fuel pump? Or did you replace the fuel pump only?

Did you replace the anti-siphon valve?

[R&T Babich]

That was my question, too. Did you change the anti-siphon valve? Or you could temporarily eliminate it as a suspect by replacing it with a 1/4" NPT x 3/8" hose barb.

It would be interesting to know what the fuel pressure is in the fuel rails (MPI) or at the throttle body when the problem is happening. That would help determine if it's fuel supply related or not.

Was the engine running while you drained the sacs? The battery could have been drained. I can't think of a reason why that would matter, but did you do the same thing when it happened before?

[teachercop]

The fuel pressure I measured during the 'vapor lock' episode at Lake Powell was a fluctuating 3-9 psi at approximately 4300 feet elevation. Measurement taken from the Fuel Rail.

Did you shoot cold water on the fuel pump when it was having its episode?

[TeamAllen]

I posted these other links about this in another thread. I'll link you to my quote. I think it's worth reading at least.

http://www.tigeowners.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83499&postcount=31

[jleger98]

Did you replace the copper cooler part as well as the fuel pump? Or did you replace the fuel pump only?
Yep.

Did you replace the anti-siphon valve?
Nope, but I can't see how that could be the issue. Every time I've taken it off it moves freely.

It would be interesting to know what the fuel pressure is in the fuel rails (MPI) or at the throttle body when the problem is happening. That would help determine if it's fuel supply related or not.
Yeah, having a hard time spending the 100 bux for the tester, only to use it once :)

Was the engine running while you drained the sacs? The battery could have been drained. I can't think of a reason why that would matter, but did you do the same thing when it happened before?
Engine was not running, but the blower was on the whole time.

The fuel pressure I measured during the 'vapor lock' episode at Lake Powell was a fluctuating 3-9 psi at approximately 4300 feet elevation. Measurement taken from the Fuel Rail.

Did you shoot cold water on the fuel pump when it was having its episode?
No, the whole episode only lasted about 5-10 secs before I was able to get it to go.

I posted these other links about this in another thread. I'll link you to my quote. I think it's worth reading at least.

http://www.tigeowners.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83499&postcount=31
Thanks TA. I'll take a look-see.

[jleger98]

I posted these other links about this in another thread. I'll link you to my quote. I think it's worth reading at least.

http://www.tigeowners.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83499&postcount=31

My old Supra had a vent on the motor cover. Do you guys think that would make a difference? I see some suggestions on these links that say just open the motor cover for 5 mins....etc. Pretty tough to do when you have sacs all around it.

[dogbert]

I have what may be a silly question. Do you have something obstructing your fuel tank vent (either a kink in the line or perhaps some insect made a nest in there)? An easy way to find out would be to open your gas cap and if there's a rush of air going in the next time you experience this, then this might be your problem.

[jleger98]

Well, interesting thought. The vent is on the same side we surf on. I wonder if that has something to do with it. That said, when removing the anti-siphon valve in the past, there was no release in pressure that I noticed. Is that vent a one-way deal or is it just an open line to the tank?

[dogbert]

Where is your vent? Mine's in just below the front windshield. If yours is further back, it might be getting submerged (not good). The vent is an open line. I've had fuel spill out of mine when I overfilled it. I'm not sure what happens when liquid flows in from the outside.

[jleger98]

Mine is port side, right about even with the peak of the windshield. Anyone else run into this? Maybe I should go out and *GASP* not fill the bags for the day and see if it still happens......that would suck.....relatively speaking. Still a day on the water without sacs is better than a day in the office.

[dogbert]

BTW, ever since we started wakesurfing a lot, I've noticed that I took on a lot of water through the blower exhaust vent in the back of my boat. This is a design issue in the 21v. When you stop, your wake washes up on the swim platform and, due to the angle of the transom, up into the blower exhaust and into the blower hose (through the blower) and into my bilge. I suspect that this accelerated the demise of my blower as well as my alternator (both recently replaced). It's a V-Drive, so the engine's in backwards, so what happens is the fanbelt starts spraying water all over the engine compartment. I don't think that's your problem, but it's something else to consider.

Finally, I do know that it's possible to overweight your boat...especially when you load it up for surfing (hey, we all get carried away trying to build the monster wake). It's possible that your boat's prop is too high a pitch for the application. For example, I re-propped to a 13x11.5 3-blade Acme. My previous prop was a 13x13 4-blade OJ. The big difference I noticed was when I had a lot of weight in the boat. I do know that the Pros load up their boats until they run like crap and then back off until it runs well. Just a thought.

[jleger98]

I do think that I likely get water in through the vents in the back. I suppose that if the blower hose is full of water, that would cause a backup of condensation in the engine compartment and that could cause the motor to run poorly.

As far as the weight, I have 1200lbs in bags when we surf. you think thats too much? The wake is awesome :ro:

[R&T Babich]

A fuel pressure gauge that I installed in the end of fuel rail was $25 and a universal test gauge at Harbor Freight is $15 + shipping: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=92699
Knowing the pressure when you're having the problem would help determine if it's fuel or electrical.

The fuel tank vent line will have a surge protector in it. It looks like a black plastic in-line fuel filter. It has a check ball to help prevent fuel from flowing out the vent, only air. The one they installed at the factory is the low cost standard issue version that doesn't work very well, but that's another thread. The vent line should slope upwards from the tank to the thru-hull vent fitting without dipping and forming a trap.

[jleger98]

A fuel pressure gauge that I installed in the end of fuel rail was $25 and a universal test gauge at Harbor Freight is $15 + shipping: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=92699
Knowing the pressure when you're having the problem would help determine if it's fuel or electrical.

cool, I'll check into this. However, I do have a GM block (95% sure anyway) and have no fuel rails. So I would have to tap into the fuel line directly, right?


The fuel tank vent line will have a surge protector in it. It looks like a black plastic in-line fuel filter. It has a check ball to help prevent fuel from flowing out the vent, only air. The one they installed at the factory is the low cost standard issue version that doesn't work very well, but that's another thread. The vent line should slope upwards from the tank to the thru-hull vent fitting without dipping and forming a trap.

I have had gas leak out of mine before when the tank is really full. I guess this would mean that the ball-valve is shot. That said, it does slope up to the vent.

[dogbert]

I have had gas leak out of mine before when the tank is really full. I guess this would mean that the ball-valve is shot. That said, it does slope up to the vent.

Me, too, although it's only once in a while. I wonder if it gets stuck shut, too?

[jleger98]

not sure. But that would certainly create undo pressure in the tank, and therefore SOME higher pressure in the fuel system, but wouldn't the fuel regulator handle that?

[dogbert]

Actually, if it gets stuck shut, then you'd have a major vacuum effect going on and eventually you'd overload your pump trying to keep up.

[jleger98]

Good point, yeah I guess it wouldn't really work the other way would it. Crap its not even Monday. So would a fuel pressure gauge tell that?

[dogbert]

That would give you an indication if you had a problem. Perhaps forcing some air into the gas tank to see if it was venting properly?

[R&T Babich]

Your engine must have the throttle body injection system. Look for a fitting (brass,capped) that looks like a Schrader tire valve. The test gauge will have a hose that will clip onto that valve. It might not be right in the hose, it could be near it on the throttle body base. Don't hook up the gauge until the ignition/pump has been off a few minutes to let the fuel pressure bleed down.
If there is no test fitting, you might be able to find the right brass adapters and add one where the fuel hose connects. I'm adding drain valves and temp alarm sensors in the trans and V-drive sump hose connections and finding the right combination of fittings is a puzzle. The fuel pressure gauge on the fuel rail was easy. I moved the test port to the opposite rail and they were just brass fittings. The hardest part is keeping everything clean.

I just reread this thread. Do you have a lot of moisture in the engine compartment when this is happening? Our last boat had a leak in the exhaust bellows and was getting lots of steam in the air. We would start off and then lose power. One time when the power drop was substantial I cracked the engine cover open and the power returned to normal. Yes, too much moisture in the air will rob the engine of power. Our bilge pump thru-hull is on the right side of the boat. The bilge pump hose should go from the pump to a point higher than the thru-hull, then connect to the thru-hull. This will keep water from coming in the thru the bilge pump. Our original bilge pump hose was not installed with the higher bend in it. You may have several problems going here because of excessive moisture.

[spooner]

I would agree that you have a vapor lock issue. Your water temp/air temp have just gotton to the point where it is making a difference and I believe that the twin cities have ethnol in all their gas unless you can find one of those pumps that are tagged "for antique and classic cars only". Ethnol severely worsens vapor lock. BTW premium will also boil quicker than regular.

Heres how I deal with the same problem. I allways let the engine idle for n5- 10 mins after we ride and are gonna swim for a bit, leave the blower on the whole time, finally on the hottest days I was still having trouble so I installed a second blower on the line in the battery compartment it blows "in" to the engine compartment.

Vapor lock is the boiling of the fuel in the lines/rails so your injectors cannot deliver fuel. Try cycling the key before you start it several times if problem is gone vapor lock is the likely cause

[spooner]

FWIW I would never run around the lake wakeboarding surfing etc with a 15$ gauge from harbor freight on my fuel rail espically if the cover is hard to get open due to sacks.

[R&T Babich]

I would never run around the lake wakeboarding surfing etc with a 15$ gauge from harbor freight on my fuel rail espically if the cover is hard to get open due to sacks.

You're running around now with a $1 tire valve in the end of the fuel rail.
There's a couple of $.50 O-rings in the fuel pump hoses.
That's why I put in a fuel fume detector.
Hook it up, check it's not leaking - it's just a test.

[dogbert]

You're running around now with a $1 tire valve in the end of the fuel rail.
There's a couple of $.50 O-rings in the fuel pump hoses.
That's why I put in a fuel fume detector.
Hook it up, check it's not leaking - it's just a test.

LOL, actually, these parts are all over $15 :) But they should be <$1. :rolleyes:

Back to jleger's problem. Ok, now that we know you're taking on water from wakesurfing, here's my suggestion. Move your bilge pump to the lowest point in the boat when you are surfing. For me, this was a big deal because all the water in my boat runs to the back, practically submerging the alternator. Previously, my bilge pump was at the lowest point of the convex V hull (right by the V-Drive). By the time I had enough water to run the bilge, there was a significant amount of water because our boat was heavily weighted to the port side rear and our bilge pump was located on the starboard side next to the V-Drive. Of course, when we started, it would all run to the back. It takes an inch or two to get the bilge pump to run at all when there's no ballast, so we're talking a lot of water in the back of my boat.

[jleger98]

i do seem to have a lot of moisture in the engine compartment. I'll have to check and see if there is water in the blower hose. I think that would answer the question. If the blower can't get enough air out past the water, it would certainly cause there to be too much moisture in there.

A few times when I have opened the engine compartment there has been visible condensation on the outside of the throttle body base, among other places.

[dogbert]

Where is your bilge pump? I'd either move it or add a second one in the back off your boat. For what it's worth, my neighbor has a Malibu who's packing seal is leaking badly. They're complaining about sluggish performance also, but always after the boat's been in the water for a while. Aside from the obivous moisture issues, excessive bilge water can cause your boat performance characteristics to change dramatically as the water weight tends to flow to the worst possible place as you accelerate...kind of like a counterweight to your engine's thrust.

[jleger98]

The bilge pump is directly under the motor. Don't have any problems with that (unless I forget to run it....gotta get me one of them float switches :D )

This isn't "sluggish" performance, it just bogs down and will die if you don't jack the throttle. I just replaces the packing seal too, so thats not leaking. As for your neighbors, its a malibu, what do they expect? :ro: :D :ro: :D

[TeamAllen]

Dog, I'm not taking away from your ideas, but my problem only happened after long fast pulls like skiing then stopping. We weren't surfing at all. I better go back and read some of those again. Maybe I'm missing something?

[jleger98]

mine only seems to happen after a lot of hard work by the engine (ie surfing). Its possible that there is just too much heat/humidity in the engine compartment. Maybe the idea of an additional blower on the bilge intake is a good one?

[anhaney]

mine only seems to happen after a lot of hard work by the engine (ie surfing). Its possible that there is just too much heat/humidity in the engine compartment. Maybe the idea of an additional blower on the bilge intake is a good one?

Another thing you need to pay attention to is when people climb back on the boat. They climb right over the engine and drip all the water of their body into the engine compartment. We give everyone a towel and tell them to dry off before climbing over the engine compartment. And we have some big towels that we put over the engine compartment. Water and engine electronics just do not like each other.

[jleger98]

I have a direct drive, so thats not really an issue for me.

[dogbert]

Another thing you need to pay attention to is when people climb back on the boat. They climb right over the engine and drip all the water of their body into the engine compartment. We give everyone a towel and tell them to dry off before climbing over the engine compartment. And we have some big towels that we put over the engine compartment. Water and engine electronics just do not like each other.

I have that issue, but I think Teamallen and jleger have direct drives.

[dogbert]

Dog, I'm not taking away from your ideas, but my problem only happened after long fast pulls like skiing then stopping. We weren't surfing at all. I better go back and read some of those again. Maybe I'm missing something?

No worries. Hey, we all have the same engine. I did get from my dealer's service manager that the Mercruisers were finicky...if you had one that worked, don't mess with it, but it could be a real bear getting one back to top shape once it started misbehaving. I occasionally have problems starting like you guys do, but I think part of my problem may be that I'm letting go of the key too early so it doesn't really kick over. Then you pretty much have to wait a few seconds to let it get itself squared away.

I couldn't remember if you said you'd changed your plug wires yet. I was told they will heat up.

[anhaney]

No worries. Hey, we all have the same engine. I did get from my dealer's service manager that the Mercruisers were finicky...if you had one that worked, don't mess with it, but it could be a real bear getting one back to top shape once it started misbehaving. I occasionally have problems starting like you guys do, but I think part of my problem may be that I'm letting go of the key too early so it doesn't really kick over. Then you pretty much have to wait a few seconds to let it get itself squared away.

I couldn't remember if you said you'd changed your plug wires yet. I was told they will heat up.


I talked to Jledger via phone and covered the whole ignition system issues with him. I am thinking his issue is a combination of a few things and he needs to get rid of all the issues. It is just time and he will be all set. :D

[jleger98]

Yeah, Anhaney and I have been round and round on this. Based on conversations with him and feedback from everyone here, this is my plan:

1. make sure the bilge blower hose isn't full of water.
2. double check that the bilge pump hose is routed to be higher than the through-hull (at some point) before it gets to the through-hull
3. make sure that for the gas tank exhaust vent, the hose is also higher than the through-hull at some point before it gets to the through-hull
4. Add a secondary blower (already have one) to the intake for the bilge to help in moving fresh air in.
5. change plug wires
6. add a fuel pressure valve to ensure the fuel pressure is not the problem.
8. replace the electronic ingition module under the distributor cap.
9. if none of that works, drink heavily.

[TeamAllen]

Sounds good, keep us posted. I will look at all those as well.
I have never replaced my plug wires. I will do that!

[dogbert]

9. if none of that works, drink heavily.

Before you do that, save your beer money for a trip to your Tige dealer. They can be most helpful. :D

[dogbert]

Sounds good, keep us posted. I will look at all those as well.
I have never replaced my plug wires. I will do that!

Mine were replaced at 400 hrs along with my plugs for the first time. The reason you want to do this is that unlike your car, you are running your boat engine at high RPMs for much longer periods of time. More RPMs means more electricity through the wires and that results in more heat build-up from resistance. This causes fatigue.

[anhaney]

Mine were replaced at 400 hrs along with my plugs for the first time. The reason you want to do this is that unlike your car, you are running your boat engine at high RPMs for much longer periods of time. More RPMs means more electricity through the wires and that results in more heat build-up from resistance. This causes fatigue.


You are right. Boat spark plugs should be replaced every 150 hrs so they do not turn into big resistors. That is another whole lesson I should start a thread on.:D

[jleger98]

Yeah, Anhaney and I have been round and round on this. Based on conversations with him and feedback from everyone here, this is my plan:

1. make sure the bilge blower hose isn't full of water.
2. double check that the bilge pump hose is routed to be higher than the through-hull (at some point) before it gets to the through-hull
3. make sure that for the gas tank exhaust vent, the hose is also higher than the through-hull at some point before it gets to the through-hull
4. Add a secondary blower (already have one) to the intake for the bilge to help in moving fresh air in.
5. change plug wires
6. add a fuel pressure valve to ensure the fuel pressure is not the problem.
8. replace the electronic ingition module under the distributor cap.
9. if none of that works, drink heavily.

Bringin this one back from the depths :)

Ok, so today I made some progress:
The blower hose was not full of water (of course it had been sitting all winter). But I did get back under the gas tank to look at the blower hose, and guess what I found? The hose had a GAPING hole in it. When I turned the blower on, about 90% or the air was coming right back into the bilge. Not only was this REALLY dangerous, but would explain why there was all the condensation on the motor every time it would die. The blower was just pushing air around inside the engine compartment.

So I replaced that hose, and routed it a little better so it wasn't so pinched when it came back up behind the gas tank. Then, I replaced the 3" blower with a 4" quieter blower. Additionally, I put another blower in the front where the air comes in. This was also a 4" blower (Rule 240 4'' Inline Blower RUL240) with some cheap little 4" to 3" adapters I found at Menards for like $.99. Anyway, now when I turn the blower on, it makes about the same amount of noise as the single old one did, but there is definite airflow coming out the vent in the back. I also have new plug wires and plugs. Probably won't be able to get it out on the lake for a few more weeks, but hopefully this will solve the problem.