Contest scoring

[Surfdad]

Hey folks, I'd like to ask some input, if I may. We are about to finalize the NorCal INT League Wakesurfing series in August. My ultimate goal with this is to bring wakesurfing to the INT Nationals at some point. I'd also like to do the same with USA Wakeboard and the WWA, but I am further away with those two organizations at this time.

One of the issues that I am faced with is consistency in scoring wakesurfing contests. One way to fix that is to codify tricks and assign point values. Much like wakeboarding where a certain value of points is assigned a 180 and a halfcab.

What I invision is a book like document that illustrates the trick and gives a description of variations, then assigns a point value to that trick.

In your opinion, would such an endeavor progress the sport or is it a waste of time?

[Tequilasun]

What you need to do is write it so that you read the pages to about halfway through the book for regular riders.

Then you can flip the book over and read it to halfway through for goofy riders.

Like English/spanish dictionaries.

That would be cool.

[dogbert]

Originally posted by Tequilasun
What you need to do is write it so that you read the pages to about halfway through the book for regular riders.

Then you can flip the book over and read it to halfway through for goofy riders.

Like English/spanish dictionaries.

That would be cool.

Ok, back on topic.

I think a consistent scoring system that's easy to understand would definitely help. I think the reason wakeboarding got so popular is that you could do it behind most boats. Wakesurfing requires a more expensive inboard boat and there's far fewer of them.

Also, I think the thing that makes it grow more quickly is TV exposure. Not sure if you an get it part of the X-games or together with some of the televised surfing contests, but that would probably help.

[Surfdad]

I really can't offer an opinion on the roots of popularity of wakeboarding. I also wouldn't expect that codifying a trick list in wakesurfing would somehow magically create throngs of wakesurfers. What I do expect is that if you create competitions that are recognized on a national level, you legitimize that sport. So, if I can achieve national recognition at an INT Championship the sport moves from "uncle billy drinking a beer while he's surfing" to Jaime Lovett throwing a 360 shuv.

TV coverage is still years away, IMO. :)

[dogbert]

Originally posted by Surfdad
I really can't offer an opinion on the roots of popularity of wakeboarding. I also wouldn't expect that codifying a trick list in wakesurfing would somehow magically create throngs of wakesurfers. What I do expect is that if you create competitions that are recognized on a national level, you legitimize that sport. So, if I can achieve national recognition at an INT Championship the sport moves from "uncle billy drinking a beer while he's surfing" to Jaime Lovett throwing a 360 shuv.

TV coverage is still years away, IMO. :)

I totally agree on the rational behind codification.

As for TV coverage, if they can show Poker, why not wakesurfing :D

[Surfdad]

I talked with some folks from a production company when I was back at Surf Expo last September. They told me: "Your sport is gay" :) They explained that what makes something like "poker" TV material is that it's SLOW enough for folks to watch it AND there is an element of danger or risk involved. Think freestyle motocross - the backflip is incredible AND slow enough that you can see what's going on...PLUS the layman KNOWS it's difficult. A shuv-it is hard, but happens so quick that it doesn't make good TV and to the layman it just looks like a guy is jumping in place.

So what if we have large rolls of razor wire being thrown at the contestants as they are videotaped? :)

[NICKYPOO]

Hmmmm, how are you going to handle a trick that nobody has seen before? Surfing is such an individualized style type performance.
Here's what I think-

Scoring for each "wave or "pass":

How 'bout three judges. One for style, one for technical, one for use of the wave. Each judge gives a score (0-10) based on whatever particular aspect they happen to be judging. Those three scores are combined for an overall score for that "wave" or "pass". The one with the most points at the end of the day wins. Easy for the judges to score and easy for the contestants and fans to understand.

Scoring for a season champion:

How 'bout a simple points battle? For each event first place gets 10 points, second gets 8 points, third gets 6, fourth-5, fifth-4, sixth-3, seventh-2, eighth place and on get 1 pt. just for showing up. Most points at the end of the year wins. Once again, easy for everyone.

Let me know what you think.

[Surfdad]

This principally the system we use currently, but that is also the problem. It isn't consistent between locations, so if you ride in Alabamba and throw a surface 3 maybe you get a 10, because they haven't SEEN anything like that before, but you come to California and folks are doing stalled 3's, Ollie 3's and aerial 3's...so your hand draggin' surface 3 scores a 6.

Without the consistentcy between locations, the folks on a National level are telling me "forgetaboutit" :)

So, the only way I can see to make it consistent is to codify each trick. Basically, to remove as much of the subjective nature as possible. Further, if we codify the tricks we can easily "inform" or train judges with the publication.

As far as tricks no one has seen before, I think that at this level - we are talking INT League not the pro's, there isn't going to be a huge variety of "never before seen tricks". But like with wakeboarding, if you have something new YOU tell the judges to pay attention, so that they aren't caught off guard.

[tony dunn jr.]

It seems to me that you would have to have something in writing for the judges to go by. As the sport and the competitions grow it would not be long that the complaining starts because someone would say a certain judge just liked johny better than billy but maybe with a point value established this could not happen. my 02 cents.

[dogbert]

Originally posted by tony dunn jr.
It seems to me that you would have to have something in writing for the judges to go by. As the sport and the competitions grow it would not be long that the complaining starts because someone would say a certain judge just liked johny better than billy but maybe with a point value established this could not happen. my 02 cents.

Where's the Russian judge when you need them :D

[Tequilasun]

Originally posted by tony dunn jr.
It seems to me that you would have to have something in writing for the judges to go by. As the sport and the competitions grow it would not be long that the complaining starts because someone would say a certain judge just liked johny better than billy but maybe with a point value established this could not happen. my 02 cents.

INT is always like that. There will always be contestants who think they got a raw deal.

[Surfdad]

I don't think poor sportsmanship is unique to the INT League - I've been to enough different events to know it's the nature of some folks to complain rather than be gracious...especially when losing. At the world's last year, which is a WWA event, a lady came up from Brazil to surf and didn't make the finals...she literally SCREAMED at the officals for 15 minutes...and when they stood their ground and she left, she was cursing them in her native tongue. :)

The INT League offers a rule book that contains virtually every trick for wakeboarding. They are divided by divisions: Novice, Intermediate, etc.
Each Trick on the Trick List has a name and typically a description, then a point value. As an example, on the Novice Tricks there is this entry:

Lip Slide - board slides sideways on wake crest for 3 seconds...200

That is pretty easy to judge and score appropriately AND it will get the same score at an event in Maine as it will in California. I can see the validity in what the national folks are saying. I have heard complaints that the sport is so young and dynamic that it will be impossible to codify the tricks, but so far, in my experience, at this level of competition the tricks are pretty limited. Little "Joey" in Kansas isn't throwing a Big Spin switch backside :)

[dogbert]

Maybe you should ask folks on various forums to help you compile a list of tricks. Matt Garcia could probably pin the list for you once completed.

Don't ask me...I'm still trying to learn how to free ride :D At this point, I need a Tsunami to get me going and, unless I get behind a tug boat, I'm not going to find a wake that big :D

[Tequilasun]

Originally posted by Surfdad
[B Little "Joey" in Kansas isn't throwing a Big Spin switch backside :) [/B]

I think you would be surprised. At least on my lake there are some people doing some pretty advanced stuff. There is no INT wakesurfing competition here that I know of. I guess that's why you are trying to get this going.

My experience with INT is that the best rider's in the area usually don't compete. But that's not a knock on INT. I think they do a great job, but it seems to become a travelling crew, where the directors family/kids/crew are the people most involved. With a few folks from the local scene thrown in.

So when this group rolls into town, there is a natural belief that they are "standing up" for each other, and the local guy is getting the shaft.

I don't really think this is the case, but you know how that goes.

Anyway..I would like a book of scorable tricks for Wakesurfing. As I've found out with my wakeboarding, some of the things I do are actually tricks!

[Surfdad]

Hey Tequila, we've traveled to virtually every part of the continental US competing in wakesurfing contests...in fact we leave Saturday for Minessota and have never felt any form of "local prejudice", BUT Judy and I have also expressed to James that the reality of life is that it exists. Accept defeat gracefully in public and bemoan the bums privately :)

I don't expect that if I can bring wakesurfing to the Nationals of INT League that it's going to drastically change anything. If there are folks throughout the country that are "killing it" as you point out, there really isn't any place for them to showcase their talents or to hone their skills by competing with folks as skilled as they are. To me the natural place for this is with the sanctioning bodies like INT, WWA and USA Wakeboard.

I HOPE to bring the sport of wakesurfing to the national events of ALL the major sanctioning bodies, but for now...we are focusing on the INT League as they are the most willing to take this risk. :)

[NICKYPOO]

Originally posted by Surfdad
The reality of life is that it exists. Accept defeat gracefully in public and bemoan the bums privately :)

Can I borrow that for a little while? :cool:

I see your dilemma with the points and why they need to change now. Question is, what are you looking for? Seems to me that you've got it figured out. The only thing left would be assigning point values to tricks?
I'd love to help with that. If we had a list along with a maximum and minimum point value, we could hash out what we think each trick should be worth. Bring it on.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the fact the one guy who is really trying to bring an entire sport into a national light is coming to us to ask for input is awesome. It's like being an uncle to a newborn. I feel like I've been there from the begining already. Who knows what it'll be in ten years. Look at wakeboarding. Thanks Dad!

[dogbert]

Let me know if you guys want to start a site about this.

[Surfdad]

Hey Nick,

My purpose in posting here was to get valid input. Sometimes within WW or WB I get non-credible folks hijacking the thread basically saying - INT League SUCKS! or whatever, without expounding further. That isn't helpful. Further the annonymity afforded the national forums allows employees of boat companies or other organizations to post without specifically saying: Oh I work for BoatCoX and BoatCoY OWNS Int League which isn't true but I have an agenda. :) If you lurk in the boat forums you can almost pick out the employees representing their employer.

What I am STILL wrestling with is to codify or not. The majority of INT League sports have a trick list, however, wakeskating doesn't. I believe the reason it doesn't is that no one has made an effort to codify the trick list, as opposed to the propaganda that is promulgated: "the sport is TOO YOUNG and TOO DYNAMIC to codify". IMO the lack of a trick list is because no one wants to do it, maintain it AND no one wants to deal with the complaints! :)

So far, I haven't heard a valid reason NOT to codify - you proposed the same basic system we are using now, but that still doesn't address the consistency issues.

So...what I am hearing, is I need to adjust the system of scoring to fit into the organization I am asking to ADD the discipline of wakesurfing. Am I correct in that conclusion? When in Rome, do as the Romans?

BTW, I do want to thank everyone for their time and consideration, and hope I'll get additional feedback, or arguments contrary that are meaningful.

Dogbert, I'm not sure I understand what you are proposing about the site, clarification please.

[dogbert]

Originally posted by Surfdad

So...what I am hearing, is I need to adjust the system of scoring to fit into the organization I am asking to ADD the discipline of wakesurfing. Am I correct in that conclusion? When in Rome, do as the Romans?

BTW, I do want to thank everyone for their time and consideration, and hope I'll get additional feedback, or arguments contrary that are meaningful.

Dogbert, I'm not sure I understand what you are proposing about the site, clarification please.

You are correct. As for the site, I've done quite a bit of work getting things hosted and launched as has my wife. I was just offering to help if you were looking to start a site for the sport or a place to get the codification sorted out.

[Tequilasun]

Originally posted by Surfdad


The majority of INT League sports have a trick list, however wakeskating does not.


Am I correct in that conclusion? When in Rome, do as the Romans?


Couple of things:

Wakeskating is a "young" sport, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have a scorable trick list in INT. I think your dead on about no one wanting to put the work/headache in to do it.

Also wakeskating draws from a slightly different audience then Wakeboarding. More your free skating crowd. I think Wakeskating values "style" over the number of tricks or difficulty of tricks in a run.

I can also see this aspect in Surfing. While hitting big spins, and the like may be the way to win at an INT tourney, there is a certain aspect of "style and flow" that I, personally, value more than stomping tricks.

But having said that:

INT has been doing things they way they do them for a long time, and they seem to do it well. So I say Do as the Roman Did, and continue to do.

[Tequilasun]

Ok, I just went and read the Int rules and scoring procedures.

I like the way Wakeboarding is set up now, although I couldn't figure out how much the "style" points are worth, or how much they might add to your trick score.

I didn't realize they had added style to the point system. Is that new, or have I just never payed attention?

http://www.intleague.com/

[NICKYPOO]

So we all agree that you should codify the tricks. However, as a rider, I would like to see at least some consideration of style in a riders performance. I've always appreciated style over technical. Don't get me wrong, tech is the basis for all board sports "scoring". Without it, you have no tricks. It's what advances the sport. The rider who can incorporate great tech with a dash of original style will always surpass pure tech prowess in my book. Surfing is such a beautiful thing to watch when someone is in the zone and they are seemlessly linking one move to the next. I just don't want to see the Zen side of the sport lost to outright tech.

While this may be an extreme black and white way to present this view, I just feel it needs to brought up.

Let me put my safety glasses on annnnnnnnd...begin stoning.:cool:

[Surfdad]

I am not an expert on INT League matters, my first involvement with them as been this year. Any INT League Historians out there?

This style component allows some subjectivity within the scoring, while also making it consistent between locations. For example if we determined that a surface 360 with a hand drag was an Advanced Division trick worth 850 points, it would be the same in FL and CA, the style interpretation would be the only variable.

[NICKYPOO]

Originally posted by Tequilasun
Ok, I just went and read the Int rules and scoring procedures.

I like the way Wakeboarding is set up now, although I couldn't figure out how much the "style" points are worth, or how much they might add to your trick score.

I didn't realize they had added style to the point system. Is that new, or have I just never payed attention?

http://www.intleague.com/

Oh, well, there you go. Surfdad, I believe it was you that said, "don't reinvent the wheel" wasn't it? I forsee the headache of a trick list in your future.;)

[Surfdad]

The AWSA has...shoot, at least 4 members on the board of directors that have site development experience, I'll need to give them first right of refusal. Thnaks for the offer to develop a web presence, I'll keep it in mind.

Yeah, Nick, it looks like I'll be developing the entire judging document, inclusive of a trick list with pictures! :)

If it kills me, in the process, it was nice knowing all of you! :)

[Tequilasun]

Pictures or illustrations? It will be hard to document the more dynamic tricks in photos or illustrations for that matter. I don't envy that process.

Good luck.

[Surfdad]

Shoot and I was planning on hitting you up for that part! :)

[dogbert]

Originally posted by Surfdad
Shoot and I was planning on hitting you up for that part! :)

I think you should hold out for live video!

[Tequilasun]

Originally posted by Surfdad
Shoot and I was planning on hitting you up for that part! :)

I could be the model!!

Every pic series of video would be "now what he should have done is...."


I'd get the points for Wave to someone, adjust board shorts, cross the crest, and maybe a 360 if the stars are all in line!
:confused:

[tony dunn jr.]

Hey surfdad keep doing what you are doing! When something is new there will always be changes and improvements as you go. So just keep up the good work!!

[tony dunn jr.]

P.S. Those guys saying the int. sucks or whatever are the same ones saying Tige' sucks so who needs them anyways!

[Surfdad]

Ok folks, I've started work on the preliminary trick list with point assignments. I'd appreciate any and all feedback, keeping in mind this is only a partial list and it's VERY tentative. :) Is there any glaring omission? Am I all wet? :) Thanks

Novice Tricks

Stand on board with handle 45
Ride with one hand on handle 45
Adjust board shorts 60
Drop handle and surf (3 seconds) 80
Wave to Judges 100
Bottom turn 200
Top Turn 250

Intermediate Tricks - no points while holding handle

Adjust board shorts 60
Drop handle and surf (3 seconds) 80
Wave to Judges 100
Crouch 150
Crouch and touch rear knee to board 200
Bottom turn 200
Top Turn 250
Lip Slide - board slides sideways on wake crest 350

Touch water in combination with any of the above - ADD 100
Grab board in combination with any of the above - ADD 150

[zany]

I have never wakesurfed but I guess I should start, because I got the "Adjust Boardshort" down in Watersking & Wakeboarding.

[Surfdad]

You've got at LEAST 105 points then! :) This PART of the list is just for those starting out. We wanted to encourage the younger kids - 8 and under - and give them the ability to actually score some points. The folks at the INT League create divisions such that everyone has a chance to compete on equal footing...we are trying to match that to make integration of the list feel seamless.

I haven't started working on the harder part of the list for the advanced riders - that will probably take me a month or so.

[dogbert]

How much for catching a soda, opening it and drinking while not holding onto the handle?

[Carter13]

A beer is twice as many points as a soda.

[dogbert]

Originally posted by Carter13
A beer is twice as many points as a soda.

My kids are underaged :D

[Surfdad]

You only score points if you catch the can/bottle while facing backwards over your shoulder. :) C'mon folks...I KNOW there has to be SOMEONE out there with ideas or concerns...some good ideas or that sees a glaring error? Won't you post, please?

[knelems]

Hi Jeff,
I think that looks great what you have listed. I finally got my niece and some other kiddos going without the rope on the Walker board, everyone has determined it really is the superior board than the other two I have. I need to send some more photos of the kiddos surfing.
I still want you to come and give a demo for our local INT people, I hate we couldn't work it out this summer since our schools have already started back but definately next summer.
Karen

[dogbert]

Originally posted by Surfdad
You only score points if you catch the can/bottle while facing backwards over your shoulder. :) C'mon folks...I KNOW there has to be SOMEONE out there with ideas or concerns...some good ideas or that sees a glaring error? Won't you post, please?

Sorry, I got carried away with the shorts tucking and the waving :D

Seriously, it would help to know some of the more advanced tricks and how they would score. What you've got now looks good so far.

For example, here's what Larry Mann has posted on his website, www.howtowakesurf.com (http://www.howtowakesurf.com/Trick_List.jsp). Some tricks you have points for, but the more difficult ones would also need to be assigned point values. It would help to get some feedback from some of the more experienced riders to determine the point value.

Pumping - turning up and down the face of the wake to gain speed.
Stalling - Applying pressure to your back foot to slow down or "stall".
Floater - When a rider and board "floats" on top of the wake.
Lip slide (350 pts) - Just like a floater but the board is sideways.
Spray (200-250 pts, depending on top or bottom)- gouging into the face of the wake to create the water under you to explode and spray.
Fire Hydrant - Placing one hand on the board and taking your front foot off.
Posing (60-200 pts, depending on pose) - doing hand and body positions while riding for cool style points.
Hang 5 - Rider extends front foot (toes) over front of board.
Rail Grabs - Grabbing the board's rail while the board is on the wake - one or both hands.
Cutbacks - Bashing off the lip of the wake with the board - the more extreme and risky the better.
Paddle back in - Going to the extreme rear of the wake, throwing down on the board and paddling back in to the power zone. This can also be done by pulling the outside rail of the board to bring it back to the power zone.
Tubing It - Throwing down on the board and sliding back into the tube until covered up - the deeper the better, and then popping out and standing back up on the board. Not sure this is possible on all boards.
Switch Stance -Riding with the opposite foot forward.
180 Spin - Spinning 180 on the wake - Board and rider spin. A blind turn is more difficult.
Airs- Launching off the lip with board into the air and landing back on the wake (toeside or heelside).
One Hand Grab Air - Grabbing one rail of the board while the board is airborne above the wake.
Double Grab Air - Grabbing both rails of the board while the board is airborne above the wake.
Hang 10 - Rider extends both feet (toes) over end of board.
360 Spin - Spinning 360 on the face of the wake - Board and rider spin.
540 Spin - Rider spins continuously 1 1/2 times until he is riding switch stance forward.
720 Spin - Rider spins continuously 2 complete 360's.
Alley Oop Air 180 - doing an air while spinning 180 the blind direction.
180 Air - doing and air and spinning a 180 in the air and landing in with a switch stance.
180 Shuv-it - spinning just the board 180 under your feet and landing with the board "backwards".
900 Spin - Rider spins continuously 2 1/2 times until he is riding switch stance forward.
360 Shuv-it - same as a 180 but you spin the board a full 360 under your feet. NOTE: rider does not spin only the board spins.
Big Spin - Same as a 360 shuv-it only the rider spins a 180 at the same time the board does a 360.

[Surfdad]

Hay again Karen,

We'd love to come out and talk to your INT League folks. In fact, maybe you and I can start preliminary talks. We are trying to put together a nationwide tour of wakesurfing contests and clinics. Maybe AL would be a good place to bring that tour?

Dogbert, thanks for the list. Just so that everyone is clear, Larry isn't responsible for the creation of that list. He was one of the founding members of the, now defunct, World Wakesurfing Association and that entity was responsible for the development of the list you posted.

The trick list for the advanced section will be more difficult as I'm probably going to have to separate it into surf and skim. My NEXT problem is that I had one rider at the last NorCal Stop combine both boards. She did a prone transfer from a Shred Stixx to a Phase 5.

Anyway, the point values aren't really a big issue, we'll just list them in order of difficulty and increment the assigned points. The BIGGER issues, quite frankly is the acceptance of the system. If you read the thread over at WW you can see there is resistance merely because it's different, and for no other legitimate reason.

Anyway, thanks for the input both of you. :)

[Tequilasun]

Originally posted by Surfdad
Ok folks, I've started work on the preliminary trick list with point assignments. I'd appreciate any and all feedback, keeping in mind this is only a partial list and it's VERY tentative. :) Is there any glaring omission? Am I all wet? :) Thanks

Novice Tricks

Stand on board with handle 45
Ride with one hand on handle 45
Adjust board shorts 60
Drop handle and surf (3 seconds) 80
Wave to Judges 100
Bottom turn 200
Top Turn 250

Intermediate Tricks - no points while holding handle

Adjust board shorts 60
Drop handle and surf (3 seconds) 80
Wave to Judges 100
Crouch 150
Crouch and touch rear knee to board 200
Bottom turn 200
Top Turn 250
Lip Slide - board slides sideways on wake crest 350

Touch water in combination with any of the above - ADD 100
Grab board in combination with any of the above - ADD 150



I think you have an excellent start here.

What about swimstep starts, will that be a "trick"?

It looks to me like you might have the top and Bottom turns valued a bit high, maybe not though. Would that be just slashing the wake, or making a pronounced turn?

How many tricks are you allowed per run?

Looks really good though....you're a brave man to take this on Jeff

[Surfdad]

We probably can't include swimstep starts as a trick as the activity is illegal in a variety of states that have adopted the NASBLA model law language regarding CO poisioning. Further, I do believe that ALL of the sanctioning bodies require that the boat be off when someone is on the swimstep for insurance purposes.

I am undecided yet on the number of tricks per run. The rest of the group is leaving it up to me - then they absolve themselves of all the lashing out :) I think that it needs to be a factor of the length of the course. Do you have any thoughts on this?

On the turns...I invisioned providing something that the little rippers can do and practice outside of the contests. I would think it would be smaller turns for the little folks and bigger more pronounced turns for the more experienced riders.

Do you think it's bravery or fool-hardiness? :)

Thanks for the input.

[Tequilasun]

Here's a couple I thought of this morning:

Crossing the spine
Riding Backside
Riding Switch
Switch Backside

These all sort of come about as you do advanced tricks, but simple riding Switch, or backside might be a good trick for the beginnner/intermediate level.

I'm also assuming that you are thinking of these tricks on a Goofy/regular basis, where you weight the boat one way for the goofies, and the other for the Regulars. So Crossing the spine becomes a much more difficult trick if you have to go from the "bad side" to your strong side of the wake. *now that's about as clear as mud, let me know if I need to explain myself better*

[Tequilasun]

Originally posted by Surfdad


I am undecided yet on the number of tricks per run. The rest of the group is leaving it up to me - then they absolve themselves of all the lashing out :) I think that it needs to be a factor of the length of the course. Do you have any thoughts on this?


Thanks for the input.

6-10 tricks per run seems about right to me.
I think simply from a "stoke" perspective, it would be cool if the little rippers and beginners could score over 1000 pts on their runs. It just sounds better to tell your friends I got 1000 points man! :D Most won't care if the advanced winner gets 5k.


Plus hopefully limiting the # of tricks will keep the advanced riders from just throwing the same trick over and over again, and get them to think about how they want to "structure" their runs. Style points would help with this also.